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Author Topic: Yellow/gold woolen fabric
Nikki
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Member # 27

posted 06-25-2005 06:21 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
From illustrations (not all that trustworthy regarding colors, if I am not mistaken) and extant dye analysis (MoL Textiles and Clothing appendix, as well as York finds), red (madder) dyed cloth was quite popular in England during the late medieval period. The yellow dyes do show up in chemical analysis, although there are problems with tannin staining (or something of that nature), but usually in combination with other dyes to yield a final color other than yellow. I know what dyes were available, and golden yellow was certianly possible, but that doesn't mean that anyone wore it. Does anyone know where I can find any other information on the commonality of yellow or gold colors in wool garments?

The purpose here is that I found a big, inexpensive bolt of golden-yellow wool at a local store for a very good price. It is a color that I have successfully acheived using natural dyes and wool (specifically, onion skins, but there are lots of yellow dyes around). I would like to use the fabric for a gown, but want to avoid any issues regarding use of dyes by various classes, or whatnot.


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Nikki
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posted 06-26-2005 08:14 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks, Brent! Do you know if there are any methods of accessing the inventories aside from geneology searches (which are what I've been finding on google)? I do have some academic ILL access, but as one might imagine, MIT does not exactly have a lot of resources for medieval history
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Marie Chantal
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posted 06-26-2005 09:07 PM     Profile for Marie Chantal     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nikki:
I would like to use the fabric for a gown, but want to avoid any issues regarding use of dyes by various classes, or whatnot.

You're looking for infos on what period, region and social-class exactly ?


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Nikki
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posted 06-26-2005 10:12 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Ah...yes, even Harvard doesn't have it, but I can put in a request. I'm on a short-term postdoc, so I still have access to things for a little while more.

Sorry, I should have given more info in the original post. I'm looking for English, 1450-1470 (ish), lower or lower-middling class. But I'll take what I can get.


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Dave Key
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posted 06-27-2005 12:10 PM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nikki,

Traditionally yellow does not appear to have been a 'favoured' colour but weld (which yields a sharp yellow) was one of the big 3 dyes (woad, madder & weld) but appears to have been used principally as a means of achieving a wider pallete rather than for the colour itself .. e.g. greens.

One suggestion is that it was associated with the Jews and therefore shunned by Christians at the time. Indeeed some illustrations of hypocrites etc. show yellow hats.

A C16th/C17th song 'Yellow Hose' associates yellow hose with bachelorhood ... maybe the reason for Shakespere's yellow hose cross gartered in (ahh !!! forgotten the play ... 12th night maybe ???) So but the C16th it does certainly appear in clothing but not commonly.

From all of the inventories I've looked through I can't particularly recall many/any yellow ... lots of reds, greens, blues, greys, blacks etc.

Sorry that's not really what you wanted to hear is it ...

Cheers
Dave


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Fire Stryker
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posted 06-27-2005 12:26 PM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It's been a while (1998), but I will see if I can find a photocopy of a document which discusses the contents of a will. One of the items left was a bolt of yellow cloth.

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ad finem fidelis


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Nikki
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posted 06-27-2005 01:06 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for looking through the inventories for me, Brent.

If yellow isn't a good choice for the 15th century, I will just use it for something else - maybe a fantabulous yellow Miyake coat that I've been wanting to try for a while.


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Vicky
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posted 06-27-2005 04:20 PM     Profile for Vicky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yellow hose cloth is mentioned in the Paston letters (Edmond Paston II to John Paston III 1471).
From the online version:
"an hose clothe of 3elow carsey of an ellyn, I trow yt wyl cost ij s"

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Dave Key
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posted 06-27-2005 07:21 PM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Vicky,

Thanks for the reminder ... interesting that a bachelor had yellow hose ... maybe the tradition was older than I thought ... or maybe it's just a coincidence ???

I'll have another peruse if I get a chance

Cheers
Dave


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Fire Stryker
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posted 07-11-2005 01:09 PM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey all,

I just pulled this from the CoSG list.

quote:
Helen Castor: Blood and Roses. The Paston family and the Wars of
the Roses. London 2004.

The Paston letters cover 80 years of English history and are the
biggest corpus of 15th letters in England. Helen Castor used
them to write the biography of three generation of Pastons,
presenting thrilling insights into the struggle of men trying
to raise their status. It made me realize what the medieval
symbol "fortune's wheel" really means.

Just one excerpt to water your mouths:

"[Edmund ...] did not allow his financial straits to compromise
his exuberant taste in clothes. He included a lengthy shopping
list in his letter to John III, who was staying in
the capital for a few weeks: three yards of purple camlet -
a lightweight cloth - at four shillings a yard; a 'bonnet of
deep mulberry' for two shillings and fourpence; woolen cloth,
in yellow, to make a pair of hose;
a belt made out of ribbon
in a grey-blue colour known as 'plunket'; three dozen 'points'
- laces by which hose were tied on to other garments at the waist
to prevent them falling down - in white, red and yellow;
and three pairs
of pattens, wooden overshoes worn to raise the wearer's feet above the
mud and refuse in the streets." [H. Castor, Blood and Roses, p. 241]


Of particular note, yellow cloth, and colored laces.

Jenn

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ad finem fidelis


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Dave Key
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posted 07-13-2005 09:53 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jenn,

That'd be the "an hose clothe of 3elow carsey of an ellyn, I trow yt wyl cost ij s" already mentioned by Vicky.


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Fire Stryker
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posted 07-13-2005 10:59 AM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
NP, just wanted to make sure nothing was overlooked.

--------------------

ad finem fidelis


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 07-14-2005 02:03 AM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
Hey all,

I just pulled this from the CoSG list.

Of particular note, yellow cloth, and colored laces.

Jenn


and colored laces.

--------------------

Geoffrey Bourrette
Man At Arms


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Gwen
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posted 07-14-2005 11:07 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Coloured laces weren't the question, *multi-coloured* laces were. The synopsys is as ambiguous as the original inventory listing- were the points solid in 3 different colours, or multicoloured?

Anyway, back to yellow hose.

Gwen


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Fire Stryker
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posted 07-14-2005 12:28 PM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In this particular instance, I would say individually colored laces rather than multi, but that is based on how the author put it. Not from actually looking at the "Letters".

I think Nikki's original question was about gold and yellow fabric for garments in general, because there was a bolt of some nice wool available.
J

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ad finem fidelis


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