I'm just about to make some livery jackets for Jeff's retainers at the Scotland jousts. I was all set to make them in "Jeff's colours" of red and blue, but after re-reading the other thread I'm not sure what colour to make them.

When doing reenactment, Jeff portrays Jehan de Haynin. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to find the arms used by Jehan de Haynin. Until we do, Jeff has a "coat of arms" he uses which adheres to 15th C. heraldic convention, but is made up of whole cloth. Historically speaking, we know JdH served the Lord of Fienes. Unfortunately, we don't have his arms either.

Tournamenting is not "reenactment" in the sense it is used here in the US, which is to say recreating a specific moment in time. It is "living history" the way the term is used in the UK, which is to say it is an activity which recreats a specific historical activity. Most participants are not representing specific historical people at a specific event. However, when Jeff is off tourneying, he tries to keep "the spirit of Jehan de Haynin off at a tournament" as much as he can given the limits of what he's doing.

From the outside, he's being paid to look good and put on a show for the public. From the inside, he and the other guys are there to compete in a sport, participate in feats of arms and live the whole chivalric thing. For Jeff, this includes thinking about what he's doing in a historical context, what it might have been like for JdH to be at a tournament. The two are not mutually exclusive, yet they exist independent of each other. The organizers don't care what's going on in the guy's heads as long as they have a show, and the guys don't care about the crowds watching as long as they can do their thing.

OK, so here's the question- would Jehan de Haynin have used his own arms at a tournament, would he have used the arms of the Lord of Fienes, or the colours of Burgundy?

As I explained above, it doesn't matter a bit to the event organizers or even to the other participants what colour his retainers wear; however, being historically accurate matters to Jeff, so I'd like to know what colours to make his grooms and squire's livery.

Thanks!

We have a lot of information on him and his lineage, wife and her family, just can't seem to track down his heraldry or that of the lord of Fienes...although we did stumble across a lord of Fienes in Chipping Norton and we're trying to see if they're related in any way.

I think Henry knows where he is buried, or if he was buried, I can ask.

The 13 kids will "not appear in this scene" just about as often as horses don't appear in the scenarios you guys do.

Based on René I figured Jeff's entourage should be wearing de Haynin's personal colours. However I was hoping Dave Key would see this and jump in, since that's one of his areas of expertise. Maybe I'll just email him directly and ask before I actually start cutting fabric.

As for the child issue, that's what nurses are for! They can all be back at home with their nurses. Yeah, that's the ticket, they're back in Louvignes with their nurses and your horses!!!!

Gwen

Hmmmmm... I know there's a section where de H is listing off a bunch of livery, maybe he just neglected his own. Hmmmm... I'll look through my copy and see.

I did recognize immediately recognize Charles, purpur and noir/sable.

Jenn

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Give us a chance ! Blimey go out in the sun for a day ....

Anyhow, I'd say you'd pretty much got it sorted. If the person is representing themselves, which at a tournament where they are competing they would be, then they would wear their own, personal, arms. Not the colours (as in 'livery') but their heraldric arms).

If they were serving their lord, then unless they were acting 'as' him (e.g. a herald who 'is' their lord for the purposes of the actions they perform) then they would wear the livery. For many this would be a standard issue ... the classic livery colours ... murrey & blue, green & white etc etc. .... or ... a special issue for a special event. Party colours so-to-speak ... in which case whatever colour they choose. This can be seen in the livery issue for special events in the Howards accounts or the City Guilds of London. This could be whatever they fancied or was traditional ...

So based on what you've said ... then, as you suggest, Jeff's entourage should be wearing de Haynin's personal colours (I'd say household colours rather than 'personal' but yes).

Were he to be serving in war then a whole new set of rules apply and he and his retainers would in all probability be wearing the commanders colours. You see this in the Paston letters where they are trying to buy Murrey and Blue cloth, and the Howards accounts where Sir John has multiple Livery Jackets in various noblemens livery, including Warwick and Clarence if I remember correctly.

But war is war and a tournament isn't.

Hope that makes sense,

All joking aside, thank you for the info. I shall continue with my plan to make his retainer's tournament livery red and blue. However, if he is ever portraying JdH in a military sense, he and his men will wear the lord of Fienes colours of black and violet.

I'll post a picture when I get them together, it will be a few weeks.

Now here's another question (and this is where all you authenistas should avert your eyes)- what would he (Jeff), Toby and Steve do to display their membership in the Order of the Crescent? Just wear their collars? Any sort of other membership thing? They'll be jousting against each other, but that's what happened in the 15th C. It will be a cool point that they're members of the same chivalric order, yet competing against each other.

Thanks to all for the input!!

Hope that's a starting point anyway

When you say the Order of the Tankard, is that the same as the Order of the Jug in the Mittelauterliches Hausbuch? If so, then the bend is a strip of cloth worn over the shoulder, hanging down in front and back, correct?

What colour would the bend be? The Order of the Crescent didn't really "have a colour" per se, but Toby found a reference stating that members were to wear a silver crescent on a gold chain interwoven with a black silk ribbon. The chapter robes were to be black as well, so we've adopted black for arm scarves and whatnot. Would the bends be black with gold crescents?

Further, Toby had suggested the liveried retainers wear their master's livery with a Crescent arm scarf. I'm not sure if he got the arm scarves from somewhere or made it up. Do you know if arm scarves were ever used by members of an Order or their retainers?

Basically, we'd like to have as much pomp as is historically accurate -banners, pennons, etc.- for both scenarios; one scenario being the Order of the Crescent competing as a team in a team joust, secondly as members of the Order competing as individuals at a tournament.

Thanks!

Gwen

Adding for Dave's benefit, in case he missed it in a past thread and has no idea at all what I'm nattering on about-

Toby and Jeff, "revived" René of Anjou's "Order of the Crescent"; together with Steve Mallett (also a member) are a team that jousts at the Armouries team jousts at Easter. The 3 of them will be jousting individually at various events around the UK this summer, hence all the questions from me, as livery is something we've been talking about amongst ourselves. You can read more about the team in our journal here, if it helps-http://www.historicenterprises.com/journal/02/

With regard colour, Black would not soound unreasonable.

However I'd be hesitant about arm scarves ... I can't think of any illustration with these on ... but then I haven't really looked.

In the Pierpont Morgan MS775 (which is a deptiction of a tournament written for Sir John Astley the Hearald is wearing the Royal arms of France, but the men-at-arms in full harness alongside are all wearing bends with multiple crosses on them (presumably St Denys)

I'll try looking for more info, but scarves seem odd. There is English evidence for the Bends (albeit the Mss is decribing a tournment in Paris) on armourerd men. The squires for the knights wear livery jackets.

So personally I'd shy away from the retainers having any association in their dress with the Order.

Out of curiosity how are you making the banners and pennons etc ... materials, cut, colours design etc. Always been a pet hate of mine the 'medieval' flags used by most groups. So curious to know what you have in mind.

Jeff and Steve both have square banners because that's what the Armouries requires. Toby has a really gorgeous pennant he had made that is more or less a really long triange, maybe 8 or 10 feet long and 2 or so feet wide where it connects to the pole. It's embroidered with a motto and whatnot, quite impressive. I have no idea at all where he got the idea for it, maybe the same place he found the arm scarves. I'll ask him if it would be OK to post a picture of it, I have one he sent us from de Haar.

I'd like to have some proper ones for Jeff, so if you have recommendations I'm all for hearing them!

Gwen

Edited to add that try as I might I can't replace the bl00dy "who's" with "whose" and it's killing me!! What was I thinking????

"please make sure Dave Key knows that I made it a LONG time ago and it is probably made up and wrong. Any thoughts on what a new better one should look like would be very welcome.

Although difficult to see in this picture, there is a bannerole with a motto scrolling down the long bit.

(The Man in Black™- he could give Johnny Cash a run for his money. )

Gwen

Edited to add that it didn't occur to me when I posted it, but there will probably be questions about this picture. Let's see if I can answer them before they derail the thread.

Left to right- Toby Capwell, Robert MacPherson, Adam DesForges

Photo taken at the de Haar Tournament, Netherlands, May 2005

Mac made Toby's armour

The armour is blackened with a chemical black process called Magic Black, and all the gold stuff is gilded.

Yes, Toby jousts in it.

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Seriously- not heavy, just awkward.

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You get time for hockey???

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Don't worry I was just curious ... need to think about Burgundian flags vs English though before I say anything (I'm assuming Burgundian based on the arms on the tent).

Jorge ... Yes sorry I'm pretty sure you did but I got distracted with work and completely forgot ... sorry.

Could you re-send it just incase. ... BTW the Hockey tends to be in the middle of the night since that's the only time the ice is available, and if you saw me skate you'd know how little time I get to practice!

Cheers
Dave

Please don't assume Burgundian, as the tent Toby is standing in front of is not his own, it's Joram's. I -would- assume English for Toby. He doesn't do a "portrayal" and hates "play acting" and all. He just loves to joust and to have cool things, so I'd say a banner commesurate with a guy who owns a fabo suit of armour.

Hockey? Who would have thunk it! Good for you! I used to be a rabid hockey fan in the old days.

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Much of what you want depends on where it'll be used.

Cennini gives good detil on how to make parade flags etc.

Jorge is probably the best person on the detail of construction and pigments actually used ... but painted and gilded works brilliantly if done properly.

I'll try to dig some more info out though since this is off the cuff thoughts stuff.

Cheers
Dave

"an medieval ensign, standard or banner used, and formed after the fashion of the 'vexillum', or standard of the Roman cavalry. It consisted of a flag attached to a cross-bar and suspended by cords at right angles to the pole. Though at first a war banner, it subsequently became peculiar to the Church. A gonfalonier is one who carries the standard. In Italy today, a gonfalonier is a magistrate."

ahh, Dave can GOSL have a gonfalon?

[ 06-25-2005: Message edited by: gregory23b ]

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However ... quote is fairly typical modern over precision. The context in which I was using it, which may well be completely inaccurate since I've never seen the term actually used in a period document in England and I can't think of an English example ... but I used it in the simpler term of a cavalry Standard i.e a shorted . i.e a long triangular flag .. but shorter than the full standard as carried on horseback.

In the Rene of Anjou illustrations the Dukes who give & receive the challenges are led to the tournament, and they're also found in the tournament, not only with their rectangular banners bearing their arms but also a rounded triangular flag in the same arms.

Exciting stuff

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