I've had a request for information regarding livery garments from a new WOR group forming in Australia. They are specifically interesting in knowing a period source for the short sleeved livery garments we all know and love.

I no longer recall what the basis was for these garments and frankly no longer have the interest in digging for that source. Could the authenticity officer for one of the groups who are still using these garments (I think I've seen a short sleeved Warwick livery coat in a recent photo) please let me know what you're using to document the use of these garments. I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks!

Thanks-

Thanks for looking though.

"In 'Medieval Soldier' and 'Medieval Military Costume recreated... you will find sources for livery jackets - and there are very many manuscript illustrations of them.

On pages 45 to 51 of 'Medieval Military Costume' I've gone into detail."

I've not yet pulled those 2 books out and looked at them to see what sources he's used.

I'll compile a listing for you, when I finish up my current project.

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Had a quick look through Rene of Anjou, Froissart Beauchamp etc. and agree with Brent that they don't appear. I'm syure I will be able to find examples ... there are always examples to prove the exception.
What I did notice that the couple of Jackets which at first sight appeared to be short sleeved were infact long sleeved Jackets with the sleeve rolled up ... e.g an English soldier wearing the St George cross on a white jacket in the background of BL MS Add 21370 f.1 (Tournaments by R & J Barber p 129)

This Mss also highlights the one garment which does have short sleeves ... but is not a livery .. the tabard of the heralds. A distinctly different thing but a possible reason for the confusion since most people seem unable to differentiate between coats of arms and liveries.

Was just thinking about you and wondering where you've been, work must be keeping you busy!

As Bob says, the short sleeved jackets do appear but honestly I don't think they were as popular then as they are today with living history groups. I imagine most of that is due to ignorance, GE decides to put one in an Osprey book and 400 people copy the design to the exclusion of any other design, skewing the use numbers all out of historical whack. Another good reason for me not to make them!

The rolled up sleeve is a cool look, isn't it? I like it so well I plan to make one for Jeff for the Scotland jousts. There again, I find it mostly in the René era texts, the French seem to have really liked those sleeveless liveries with the enormous armholes, the Burgundians slightly less extreme armholes.

You comment that "most people seem unable to differentiate between coats of arms and liveries.", would you care to explain the difference? Bob R. and I have been discussinbg this lately, and I spoke to Joram about it a month or so ago. If you have the time, an explaination from you who have taken the time to study the subject would be most welcome and appreciated.

Thanks!

Yep things have been 'a little manic' at work.

With regard to the difference between 'livery' and 'coats of arms' .... it's hard to explain in a neat and tidy way but essentially it comes down to the separation of identification by the person and identification by association.

By personal identification I mean the use of imagery to symbolise the individual person. This is the essence of heraldry. The design placed initially on the shield itself. These are the Arms described in heraldry and which are specifically, and regulated to be, unique to a specific person.

In contrast identification by association is not personal, it is the linkage to thing ... whether that be of a household, a family, a title or a place. This is what forms the core of 'livery colours' and badges.

To give an example:
Richard Neville had a coat of arms personal to him, but he used the symbols of Warwick (the Bear and the Ragged Staff) to represent his influence, and these badges were worn by people to show their association with the Earl.

That's why the Duke of York on return from exile in Ireland in 1460 wore the badge and colours of Henry VI, to symbolise that he was 'his man' (honest). Since the whole idea of livery was to show the largesse of a lord to 'his' people it is not surprising that this often took the form of cloth and clothing in 'his' colours. But remember that these colours could and did change ... especially for urban Guilds, but also for the highest noblemen according to the occasion. Richard III Coronation has him buying cloth of white and green for some of his men ... colours not usually associated with York but rather with Tudor ... so always beware of books that say Sir X's livery was Y ... but that's a digression.

The separation of personal from association is clearly represented on the flags carried into battle.

The personal flag of a high ranking nobleman was the Banner. This carried their personal arms ... for Edward IV the Arms of France & England Quartered

In contrast the Standard and pennons were flags of association and carried the colours and badges by which their owner wished to be known. The standard gives another clue to this separation .... and one that always annoys me with sports fans today ... on the classic standard the hoist has the national flag ... for England the Red Cross of St George on a White field ... this is the badge of England and the symbol with which the English by association belong. For Scotland the equivilant is the Saltaire, the White Corss of St Andrew on a Blue field. Yet fans often insist on the Three Lions of England or the Lion Rampant of Scotland ... but these are not symbols 'of England' or 'of Scotland' but of 'the King of England' and 'The King of Scotland' ... like the arms bourne by a knight they are personal and have no place in association.

Other than the personal arms worn as a 'Coat Armour' or flown on a Banner the Heralds Coat bears their lords personal arms ... because in that role they 'are' their lord and so the personal link remains. The only other commonly mentioned place for the personal arms that I can remember (and all this is off the top of my head)is the flags attached to trumpets. This may be symbolic of the role of the trumpet in ;heralding' the players lord or acting as their mouthpiece on the filed of battle ... or just simply because they liked them ... I'm not sure.

Where all this goes a bit awry is that the personal arms as plaved on the shield is then compicated in heraldry because of the full achievement of arms which includes the helm (to represent rank) the mantelling (traditionally in the livery colours) and the crest and supporters which are traditionally linked to the badges. So modern heraldry has drawn together and formalised the personal (arms) with the association (badges and colours) to form a full personal achievement of arms and a complete meld of separate concepts.

When you look at period rolls, e.g. the Salisbury roll, the two things are separated ... the Arms are shown on the coat of arms, the livery and badges on the pennons.

I keep meaning to go down to the Royal College of Arms and look at the C15th Rolls of Arms to see exactly what they do show. Most books when they show Standards of the noblemmen of the Wars of the Roses show extracts from latter books (16th-17th) designed to represent a semi-formal concept in a standardised and regulated way which may not have been applicable in the C15th.

Hope this makes some sense ... it's late and I didn't have time to look up the detila sproperly, so apologies for it being a bit glibe and simplistic.

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The place to look, outside of the Ducal Archives in Dijon and Brussels, and the ones held by the Department de Nord, would be Gardiniers book "L'Artillery des le Ducs de Borgogne" (which I apologise for misspelling horribly). You can likely find it at a University Library, Liege or Lieden are good bets, because finding copies otherwise are almost an impossibility. Gardinier recorded all the purchases and distributions of the Burgundian Ducal artillery, which fortunately for us includes such things as tents and paltots, in addition to cannons, arbalasts and ammunition.

I don't think the blue/white was set in any ordinance as to which side of the jacket should be which. We follow the same conventions as the Company of Saint George with ours.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
I don't think the blue/white was set in any ordinance as to which side of the jacket should be which.

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Personally I do think it mattered, but it's hard to tell as it is only occasionally mentioned, and I agree I can't think of any ordinance which does so.

As an example of where it mattered ... in the Pastons they say which colour should be worn on the left side.

This raises an interesting dilemma ... should heraldic precendence apply or a tailors ... is 'the left side' the left side of the shield as viewed heraldically ... which would make it the right side as worn ... or is it the left side as worn ....
I'll leave you to mull over that one.

are you still looking for a source?

Db

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Db

I actually have a half dozen or so short sleeved coats that I'm looking to sell. Made of linen, hand stitched crosses, hook front. LARGE sizes, many never used or only slightly used--anybody interested? Looking to move them, so a good price./ Leftover from the disbanding of the Red Company.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Key:
Personally I do think it mattered, but it's hard to tell as it is only occasionally mentioned, and I agree I can't think of any ordinance which does so.

As an example of where it mattered ... in the Pastons they say which colour should be worn on the left side.

Cheers
Dave

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There is a Burgundian pavise in the Delft city museum (I believe), that is white to the left of the viewer, and blue to the right of the viewer. Just came across a photo in colour of it, thanks to the searchings of my wife

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[ 07-26-2005: Message edited by: Thomas james hayman ]

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J

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EDIT: just had a look through my list of pavises and i couldn't find one for Delft at all. Interesting, thogh the list i have dates back to the 70's . none of the descriptions match either. checke dmy catalogues and nothing matches. hmm.

[ 07-27-2005: Message edited by: Thomas james hayman ]

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J

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[ 08-05-2005: Message edited by: Thomas james hayman ]

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This example is from around 1486. It belongs to the armies of Maximillian I. He married Charles the Bold's daughter, Marie and some of the Burgundian territories.

So technically, yes it is. It is also very similar to two that were captured from Charles the Bold's armies. I believe it was Grandson. I think I sent you the write-ups on those.

The 'x' is a St. Andrew's cross.

White field, red St. A's cross, gold fusils (fire steels) with gold flames

white fields, red st. A's cross, yellow fusils, red flames.

red and white parti per pale, red St. A's cross picked out in black over all, yellow fusils and yellow(?) flames I think.

Then the delft one is parti per pale, white and blue, with a red st. A's cross with strikers in yellow and flames in yellow.

So they don't have to be blue and white to be Burgundian.