I'd be interested to see some discussion of how other people see the neck edge- collar or fur/velvet facing?

Thanks-

This bears a little digging.

I know Nikki's prepping to "defend" in April so she may not get to this for a while.

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When I made mine, I took into consideration the construction of an entirely fur-lined gown, not just of fur edging around the collar. I have an interlining of heavy linen, and pad stitched all of my fur to that. The wool part of the gown has no collar, and is just a basic neckline, rounded at the back, a V in the front, with the grain of the fabric down each side of the V. The linen interlining/fur lining portion does have a collar attached, which then folds down over the wool dress. I've tacked it down lightly, so the edge of the fur is attached down to the dress, and doesn't move or flap up. The bottom hem of the dress works much the same. The lining/interlining portion is a couple of inches longer than the dress, and I just folded it up over the hem and tacked it down.

If I wanted to, it would be very easy to detach the fur lining and move it to another color wool gown.

So, I guess I'm not sure whether I made a "collar" or a "reverse facing".

I did it this way deliberately for a few reasons:

1. I was fur lining the whole dress, not just attaching it as trim, and wanted to treat the lining as one big portion.

2. According to _The English Fur Trade in the Late Middle Ages_ (I think that's right) by Elspeth Veale, the fur was backed by heavy linen, or by canvas. Pad stitching the fur to the lining was a handy way of shaping the fur to achieve the right fit.

3. According to the same book, a little later than this, the fur linings were left unsewn to the outer garment, so they could be easily worn with different garments. I realize this is later, but mine is sewn in, so a little less sophisticated, and it's still easy to switch if I'd want.

I am assuming the heavy pleated gowns of the early to mid C15th as per Van der Weyden, or are you thinking of the smooth lined gowns of the 1470's of the Donne Tryptich style ... or both?

Another thought is why does it have to be one or the other. My thoughts strayed to the C18th-C19th Napoleonic period soldiers coats with facings which were simplified and stylised versions of the early C18th coats buttoned back.

I had a quick glance through the Devonshire Tapestries for inspiration ... these show great similarities between the male and female gowns with wide collars. Indeed one pic of a lady with a hawk in her hand, in the Deer Hunt, shows lines which would fit with the seam lines for the connection of the turned back CF seam with an attached collar (as on a modern suit)

Similarly a Lady in green in May from the Tres Riche Heures of c.1413-16 shows the collar on a slightly earlier style pleated gown as the collar is raised & folds back, the gap of the fold clearly visible.

Collars on womens gowns are also clear on the outside of the Ghent altarpiece by Van Eyck c.1425-33

In contrast, looking at the mourner in green in Van Der Weyden's Descent from the Cross c.1430-35 the 'collar' is a grey fur attached to the neck as a facing, i.e.merely folded over the edge as a trim, the end left unfinished and the edge of the neck visible.

If we move on to the later 'smooth' gowns of the Portinari and Donne Tryptich then I'm inclined towards facings rather than collars per se. In part because of the extra bulk of a collar which is being removed elsewhere in the style of dress. However also because of the back. The 'V' edges at the front could happily work as collar or facing. However the deep 'Y' of the back does not so naturally lend itself to work as a functional collar. But functionality is not the issue with gowns of this degree.

Looking at a picture of the happy citizens of the City of Ladies in Christine de Pisan's 'Le Livre de la Cite des Dames' many are wearing the deep 'V' fronted 'smooth' gown. Unusually however many do not have the characteristic wide belt (some do some don't) which tends to hide the transition from gown to 'collar'. In the illustration the fur trim does 'appear' collar like ...with the rounded end from the lining turning out to form the collar. However I wouldn't swear to either. I'm pretty sure somewhere I've seen the botton of the back 'Y' going over the belt ... if this is the case then this would suggest a collar rather than a facing stitched to the gown, as here the belt would pass over both gown & facing ... but I can't be sure as I can't find the pic and this is dredging my memory to the extreme.

Good question though.

I'll be interested to see what people come up with.

quote:

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Originally posted by Charlotte:
Please forgive me, but can you explain the exact difference between a collar and reverse facing? All of my sewing experience is self-taught, and I'm not the greatest when it comes to terminology.

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Echo... echo... echooo...

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