Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  FireStryker Living History Forum   » History   » Medieval Lifestyles, Activities, and Equipment   » 1475 Swiss Velvet?

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: 1475 Swiss Velvet?
Reinhard
Member
Member # 107

posted 02-09-2005 06:25 PM     Profile for Reinhard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm about to display another aspect of my stunning ignorance.

Reading Alison Weir recently, the point was made in her research by a British textile expert that velvet usage would be restricted to the upper echelon of society.

Is there agreement with this? I seem to have heard (great sourcing there, you'll notice) a few references to velvet covered brigandines for quite unimpressive persons. Would this restriction for velvet only hold true in the British Isles?

My portrayal (if it can be called that) is of a Swiss footman in 1475 who is a journeyman plattner when not called up by the canton, would it be valid for such a person to have a red velvet hood?

Thank you in advance for any and all help.


Registered: Jan 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin
Member
Member # 603

posted 02-13-2005 06:02 AM     Profile for Martin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Reinhard,
well all the original brigandiens I know of ( going by a whole pile of material I got from Gerry Embelton) they where all covered in velvet. But that velvet has nothing to do with our now a day cheap cotton velvet. What they where using was either silk- or wollvelvet which you still can get today althought that isn´t easy and just like then everything but cheap! As to what you have planed, well the Swiss "found" "lent" or "borrowed" a lot especially after those numerous battles with the burgundians, so a brigandian would be o.k. But a hood out of velvet? Never seen or read anything about something like that, but that doesn´t mean much, but it would if such a hood did exist be something odd. I would in your case give that a second thought. If you are after a fancier hood make one of good woll cloth with a silk lining inside, and you definately would be more on the safe side than with one made of velvet.


Martin

--------------------

Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!


Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 02-13-2005 09:58 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi All,

Martin, you can add to the list of covers of extant brigandines (not coats of plates) and fragments leather (Reale Armeria - many have been re-covered, but a few retain original portions of covers), heavy herringbone linen or hemp - it might have been a fustian, but no analysis has been done on the fibers - yet (a fragment from Chalsis in the Higgins reserve collection) , and documentary evidence aplenty for leather covers (The Howard Accounts,and numerous wills), and Fustian (ditto, and the inventory of a dowery of arms to Scotland from Burgundy in the 1440's).

It's important to note that the leather covered ones have canvas jackets as the base, and usually some fine lightweight leather as a decorative cover, and aren't structurally dependant on the leather. I've seen some fragments with the textile pattern of the foundation rusted into the base, and a fragment of leather under the nails.

I think the velvet ones are the principle survivors because they appealed as decorative elements before collection became common in the 19th century, and because collectors prefered them later. The Spanish leather covered ones exist because they just happened to be surviivors of a private armoury that didn't get broken up and sold until the 19th century - thank God, a few decades earlier, and the would have been sold off for their weight in iron.

The primer article for surviving brigandines, and documents pertaining to them in English is "excavation of a jack of plates at Beeston Castle", Arms and Armour Society Journal, Spring (I think) 1989. Although the article is about an excavated jack of plates of 16th century origin, since some of the surviving plates were cut up out of a 15th century brigandine, the author provided extensive information regarding them in his lengthy endnotes.

--------------------

Bob R.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Martin
Member
Member # 603

posted 02-13-2005 01:37 PM     Profile for Martin     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Right Bob,
it is clearly hard to say how common something was in those days, on hand of the few pieces that survived to our days, so I guess in some cases it will always be guess work.

Martin

--------------------

Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!


Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mike
Member
Member # 596

posted 02-14-2005 04:50 AM     Profile for Mike     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmmm, glad you asked that question as I am trying to gague the availability of velvet - albeit for another purpose - for a civic dignitary of York. I have seen velvet covering tack from the early/mid 16th C, and it is also referenced in the household accounts of Elizabeth Woodeville, but what availability would there be for the wealthy but non-nobility?
Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2

posted 02-14-2005 08:48 AM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Velvet appears a lot in the Howard Household accounts as well.

I think that'd be the place to look. Is in wills and household accounts of lower estates.

I don't know if there is book on Sumptuary laws for England during that time. If there is, that'd be the place to look to see what was "allowed".

Dave might know. He's very well read on English stuff.

--------------------

ad finem fidelis


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Colin Dalton
New Member
Member # 735

posted 02-14-2005 12:09 PM     Profile for Colin Dalton   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Apologies for taking this slightly off topic but I was wondering if there is any evidence for brigandines with an outer layer of wool.
Thanks.

[ 02-14-2005: Message edited by: Colin Dalton ]


Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 02-15-2005 06:44 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Colin,

Wool velvet, yes, but plain wool, I don't think so. Most of the Medieval velvets I've seen have a silk pile (or in the case of a wool velvet, which I have never personally seen, but I know they existed, a wool one), and a weft of backing of stouter material, almost a canvas. Most of the coverings share as a common attribute toughness, and I don't think a wool cloth cover would be tough enough to stand up to the sort of abuse likely to be recieved - it sort of pulls, and felts, given certain conditions.

There was gloth of gold brigandine covers, or cloth of gold distributed to the Household of Edward IV with the intent of being made into brigandine covers. There is also evidence of a brigandine given to a favorite archer of the Duke of Brittany, mid 15th century, which was covered with black velvet, with nails that had heads capped in silver, with a pattern in gold. Plenty of evidence for the higher end of the scale, and a lot of scrambling to find evidence for the humbler samples.

--------------------

Bob R.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Wolfe Argent Living History

Copyright © 2000-2009 Wolfe Argent Living History. All Rights reserved under International Copyright Conventions. No part of this website may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage or retrieval system, without permission of the content providers. Individual rights remain with the owners of the posted material.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.01