In trying to improve my impression before the Michaelmas event, I decided to have/make a proper purse suitable for a gentleman. I wanted something different, and entirely suitable to the role of a gentleman, so I've been looking for years to have a purse frame made, so as to have a textile bag purse as seen in so many pieces of Flemish art.

I contacted Patrick Thaden, and he was willing to take on the project. I had found one that was of iron, circa 1460-80, and from Bruge - many of these purse frames are cast out of latten, but a substantial minority were iron, and either tinned or blued. I figured people might well want to eventualy go for a cast latten one (which I think would be easier to make) and gild it, but would be unlikely enough to go for an iron one once I showed it off . Here is Patricks reproduction.

here is an engraving of the original

I was particularly attracted to it as it is a little plainer than the usual survivors which obviously belonged to the extremely well off or aristocrats (one in the Kunsthistorichesmuseum in Vienna has practically an entire town along the frame), but it is quite different than the usual leather kidney purses, or the open ring frame purses which are equally suitable for gentlemen, and you find the fittings offered (White Rose does a lovely set, which was my last resort, and Gaulker makes a purse belt hanger).

Thats something to put on your list Mark - how about a cass brass purse frame?

Patricks reproduction uses known Medieval techniques of metalworking exclusively, and the only modern tools he used at all were a drill and sandpaper. I was extremely pleased - there are minute differences between his reproduction and the original, but it looks like "one from the same shop". Patrick did a great job, and it's a great touch for my impression.

Now I have something to do with the dress wieght pure silk velvet I stumbled across, which *is* pure silk velvet, but to light to make brigandines out of.

What should I line the bag with? I've linen, or should I line it with silk or something else?

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nice thing indeed, I´m looking forward to see the finished purse (and many more pictures from your Michaelsmass event).

As for the lining, my first choice would be silk, but very fine linen could also look very nice.

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'Course I'll have a few surprises for Michaelmas too...

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My research shows the majority of the 'nicer' purses which have survived (I'm referring to those with drawstrings as opposed to on frames)have silk linings. I don't know of any where the lining is the same fabric as the outer though. (here I mean pattern - not type. ie most linings are plain silk). Linen is much less common.

Please post a pic of your finished purse!

[ 07-26-2003: Message edited by: Gina ]

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What is the typical pattern of bag construction for this sort of frame? I have a good photo of exactly one, and then photos of a bunch of frams minus bags.

Any help is appreciated.

[ 07-29-2003: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

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Do you have the Museum of London's Dress Accessories 1150-1450? I think that has some information about purses, but I don't actually possess a copy of it myself. (I'm hoping it has information about the kind of purse I'm going to want to make, too.)

I would guess that your purse is the sort that's got a round flappy bit towards the top, with a drawstring closure under that flap. This is a guess, mind you, and I am probably hugely incorrect. But in terms of illustrations of purses that I would assume to have a frame similar to yours, I'd look at the following:

• Herr Dietmar von Ast from the Manesse Codex (early 14th century); the one to the right of Dietmar's hat.

• Illustrations from the 1432 Decameron (BnF Arsenal ms 5070) including fol. 304 and fol. 387.

Sometimes when I've made that style of purse, I've run a channel through the bottom and set a wire into the channel, so that it maintains the line (or curve). I'm quite sure that's not at all period. (This purse doesn't have the wired bottom, and it does just fine.)

There's a completely different style worn by a servant at far left in the Supper at Emmaus by Jacopo Bassano (1538) which I could also see as being supported by the kind of purse frame you've got.

Well, I do have an idea, but I want to get it right before I cut up some antique silk velvet.

The photo I have of a fancier one retaining it's bag has a decorative part of it's frame missing, and you can clearly se how it is attatched to the frame. There are no drawstrings, it is whipstitched directly to the frame. The purse frame has a clasp that secures the bag closure.

The bag is a truncated triangle with an arch matching the purse frame at the top - this is inset behind the front of the frame. The bag has very small pleats sewn into the top, that smooth out toward the bottom of the bag. The sides are what puzzles me. There is a fold for expansion, as on some older ladies purses in leather from the last century. I can't see the seams, and the edging has cord endiong in a tassel at the point of the bottom of the bag on each side, si I have no idea of the seam arrangement. I'll try to upload a picture tonight or tommorow to show the example.

All the pictures you have linked to save the last are open ring purse frames, which are different. In he ones I have seen the bag is sewn round the first ring, and the recond ring preassure its between the fabric and the hidden ring, making a decorative frame for the fabric, but not serving a vital function.

[ 07-29-2003: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

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JK, what you are describing is exactly what I am trying to copy. My trouble is figuring the clever fold and the seams - right now I am presuming the seams are along the sides where the braid is.

Glen, Well, I portray a climber of some means, married to a person with business intrests of some means. I want to go with whaterver lining is the most correct. The purse in Vienna is definitly for an aristocrat proper (and I presume the one in the MET is likely the same), where the persona I portray is that of a gentleman. I know the theme you are suggesting, and when I get together a new belt, I'm running with it by having the fittings gilt latten.

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First the lining. (This info from Gary) The Purser's Guild documents only mention leather, and these suggest linen as the lining. One mention forbids the use of old damaged or rotten linen being used towards the bottom of a purse where it can't be seen! It does not describe which type of purse this applies to though.

I've also found a reference to a leather lining on a silk drawstring pouch - providing my rough translation of the Dutch original is correct.

So, you could have more options for a lining there.

It seems that most of the surviving drawstring purses have silk linings, however, as most that survive are relic purses or similar, there could be a reason for that.

As for fitting the bag to the frame. I assume, from the picture you've posted that your frame is for a 'closed' bag - there appears to be a clasp there?

The shape of the bag will probably be more or less rectangular (except for the curved top to fit)- the pleats you mention are (using artistic sources as evidence)usually a form of smocking. (off-hand I think it is called today, Italian smocking, I seem to have misplaced the book I found the technique in). This gathers the top area of the bag and helps to give it its shape. Pleats would work just as well, and also seem to be used, and would perhaps suit with the persona, as the smocking is quite skilled to get right, or the knots all fall out!

There's no reason why the bag cannot be shaped to one from an artistic source, there are enough to choose from! There shouldn't be a reason to add a wire to help the purse hold its shape - just use a stiff outer and lining and if it has been cut well, it should hold its shape.

Yes, the bag will most likely have been sewn directly on to the frame - through the holes in it, although on a frame that fancy I suspect the stitches would be hidden as opposed to just whip-stitched on. (Again, Gary's example shows this) If a frame doesn't have holes for fitting, it is likely that the fabric (or leather) will be folded over the frame and hang from it in that way.

The bags with circular style openings are also fitted directly to the frame, (so the top must be shaped to fit)with the weight of the frame keeping the opening flat - so effectively, closed. Some artistic sources do show an addition area of fabric at the centre of this type of opening which is essentially a drawstring with tassels - this closing the bag more securely.

The 'W' shape for a bag sounds good - not one I've tried, although I know that Gary has made examples with two bags - the front one smaller than the back. Certainly, its worth bearing in mind that many purses do have the fold of the cloth at the bottom ('shield-type' drawstring ones do not)this would help to ensure the strength (likewise, do your lining the same).

Seam edging. Many purses have a braided or woven border on the seams - quite a few of these extend (on drawstring bags) across the top opening as well. Tablet weaving is used, directly onto the seam - with the weft entering the shed from the same side each time - and then back through the fabric. Another method used is like loop braiding - again with a threaded weft running through to sew the seam. I think, but cannot be sure as I haven't managed to get close enough photos of a few purses, that a tabby/tablet woven ribbon, or braid sewn onto the seam afterwards may also be used. These methods all help to strengthen the seam.

The 'w' method would be interesting to try to edge - it could be tablet woven and then divide into two where you want the bag to open further - but again, having not seen one, that's just a guess.

The silk purses in the Mol books are drawstring purses, really quite simple but do include features such as the tablet woven seams and tassels.

Personally, I'd experiment with linen first to get the shape I was happy with and one that worked when sewn to the frame, and then unpick it to use as a pattern before cutting up any nice silk!

Oh, and there are quite a few drawstring purses which have more little drawsting purses attached inside - might be a nice extra touch to your bag!

[ 07-30-2003: Message edited by: Gina ]

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all i'll have new at Michaelmass is a dagger and sword

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/Henrik

Thanks for posting the pictures. Do you happen to know the provenance of the piece?

Thanks very much Gina for the help, I'll be jotting a note off to you shortly.

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It is dated 1400-1500 by the museum experts, and there are actually one more wich look almost exactly the same in the collections. What you cannot see is that it is made out of iron and then tinned. The mechanism, hard to see in the pictures, consists of a construction where you push the buttons on the sides of the "house" downwards, wich releases the two frontpieces (the one most further is only decorative ment to be on the outside of the textile fabric) and the inner part is the part where you fasten the textile. I think.

I have a technical drawing somewhere, but I cant find it right now.

What sort of construction would an interior pocket be? At this point, my best guess for the sort of purse I'm looking to construct is on the order of a simple square drawstring closure style, except with a flap and point closure. I assume it would be sewn ti the interior of the main liner.

Any help would be appreciated.

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I then put them together (lining inside, wrong sides together) and turn under the top edge of both (again, so raw edges are between the two) and sew the lining to the outer. I normally only attach the lining to the outer across the top edge of the purse.

If I am doing a braided or woven edge, I don't normally sew the two together - that is done during the braiding or weaving process.

I don't personally know of any examples of interior 'pockets' - but there are purses which have smaller purses inside of them. These are drawstring purses, made of the same material as the larger, outer purse, and seem to be attached directly to the top edge of the main purse. I know of these only from photographs, I haven't yet had the opporunity to see one 'in the flesh' so to speak, but for one at least it seems that the drawstrings for the smaller purse are brought through the fabric of the outer purse to hang outside - one one has pompoms on the ends of these drawstrings. I haven't seen any with a flap clousure.

I hope that's helped a bit!

(Reference for the drawstring purses):
Tongerere.
Basiliek van O.L.-Vrouw geboorte
1. Textiel van de vroege middeleeuwen tot het concilie van Trente.
Title Series: Clenodia Tungrensis
Publisher: Peeters Leuven 1988

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Kunstwerk: Tafelmalerei ; Flügelaltar ; Passau(?) ; Mt:02:001-012 , Is:49:008-026 , Is:60:001-006
Dokumentation: 1480 ; 1490 ; Passau ; Deutschland ; Bayern ; Veste Oberhaus ; D 381

Kunstwerk: Tafelmalerei ; Flügelaltar ; Frueauf-Werkstatt ; Donauschule , Salzburg , Passau ; Mt:02:001-012 , Is:49:008-026 , Is:60:001-006
Dokumentation: 1475 ; 1485 ; Passau ; Deutschland ; Bayern ; Veste Oberhaus ; D 412

Kunstwerk: Tafelmalerei ; Flügelaltar ; Kärnten ; Mt:02:001-012 , Is:49:008-026 , Is:60:001-006
Dokumentation: 1490 ; 1500 ; Vorderberg ; Österreich ; Kärnten ; Pfarrhof

Brent

So, what do you think? Austrian or German purse fashion?

Jenn

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What really interesting is that there are great similarities between Flemish and these south German Adorations in regards to the pouches.

You'll notice that in all of them the kneeling magi has a purse on his belt and that in each local the style is different. In the Flemish or near Flemish ones you see the hooped style that we see in all sorts of Flemish artwork from the time and in the south German ones we see the other style like Bob got reproduced.

LOCHNER, Stefan c1440 Cologne

WEYDEN, Rogier van der c1445-50

MEMLING, Hans c1470

UNKNOWN MASTER, Flemish (last quarter of the 15th century)

Brent

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quote:

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Originally posted by gaukler:
This suggests that this sort of purse is symbolic of "wealthy foreigner", like the turbans and strange clothes worn by the Magi in paintings.
mark

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That is false logic. The turbans and strange clothing represent that they are "wealthy foreigners". That does not mean that the other items are inheritly "foreign". It simply means that you should not rely on it alone as evidence. if you scroll back up you'll find the double hoop flemish style is found in portraits and many other works of art and we have extant ones atleast in England. Its quite common.

As for the other style, in thousands of images those are the only ones I've seen. We have several extant from that period. Based on the similarities between the pictures in art schools obviously influening each other and the style of purse frame both being obviously based in reality and flemish ones definitely showing the current or near current fashion it is like the other does as well simply from its own local.
I'm also willing to guess that if you look at where the surviving ones are found that you will find them in central Europe, I know there is one in Vienna and one in Sweden both central European.

1450 ; 1500 ; Innsbruck ; Österreich

Not sure about this one.
1445 ; 1455 ; Sterzing ; Italien

Or this one.
1475 ; 1485 ; Esztergom ; Ungarn (Hungary) http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006472.JPG

I'll keep looking for more.