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Originally posted by Alienor:
only the wealthy wore red...

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Chef and I had discussed this when I chose my doublet and hosen colours.

I can't speak for more expensive fabrics, however the soldiers in different regions (towns) particularly in southern Germany wore red usually as a party (two tone) colour. The Swiss did, the Swabian region did. I think one of the towns in Bavaria did as well. Pending on your portrayal, red dyed wool was certainly available. Which historical text I read it in escapes me at the moment but I'll keep looking...

*Madder- as John says is not exotic and was the cheapest way to dye red. it produces colors ranging from orange to brick but seldom a true clear "red" and is fairly light sensitive, meaning the color fades to a muted tone over time. It shows up with the most frequency in archaeological textiles.

*Cochineal- an imported dyestuff made from/with the bodies of dried beetles. Also known as "grain" or "grana". Very widely imported and used- some clothes are named "grain" or "grana" because of the color. Produces a clear red that fades less than madder.

*Vermillion- Ground mineral that is very expensive and produces a deep rich clear red ranging from crimson to blood.

Red appears everywhere- import records, inventories, paintings, etc. It appears to have been a popular, easily and in some cases cheaply obtained color. Laborers wear the orangy or frequently seen salmon color of faded madder- cardinals and lords the deepest garnet tones of vermillion.

Hope that helps!

Did colors generally have some meaning in a military context? I think I saw something on the Red Company homepage that suggested that people thinking of participating with them to wear a dull red color as that was the company color. I assume this is mostly for outerwear? Is this only in a military setting?

Colored livery (coats, vests, etc.)indiciative of household or company affiliation were generally issued. Also, there may have been colored cloth sashes or "bends" issued to indicate affiliation and alliegance. This livery would also probably have the lord or company badge and possibly the symbol of the country or larger group you are aligned with.

Much of this revolves on local custom though. You can probably pick the area or person you are going to be a follower of and do the research to determine appropriate local practices.

Suggest you do a search of this forum with the subject "Livery". There ought to be tons of material already posted.

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
There are several dyes used to obtain red:

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as an added bit of info to consider....mss are painted with vermillion, which makes a lovely rich red that will not fade. However, as a fabric dye, this was VERY expensive.

one could suppose that the brilliant red of the manuscripts is an artifact of the materials they used to paint it, and not an accurate representation of the color of peasant hosen.

Like Gwen says, Madder is cheap, easy to use and makes a lovely, albeit transient, color.

more expensive dyes give those lovely primary colors we modern people love so much (just like our medieval counterparts )

just my opinion,
--Anne-Marie

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The best information I have at hand regarding the use of vermillion and lapis as dyestuffs comes from an article on dying which I found on line several years ago. I haven’t done a huge amount of additional research on dying, so I don't have any additional information about the practice. Excerpts of the article referring to vermillion and lapis follow:

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These dye recipes were translated from the Innsbruck Manuscript, which was written circa 1330 AD in Tirol, in what is now western Austria. They are the oldest recipes for fabric dye to be found in the German language.

The text itself is found in Ein Buch von Alten Farben a work on medieval textiles and dyeing by Emil Ernst Ploss. He included the original text and facsimile of the Innsbruck manuscript, along with commentary and suggestions concerning the identity of the more obscure items used therein.

A mordant found in the recipes is Ezzeich. Ploss translated this as lime water, a water solution of calcium hydroxide. In Thomas Cooper's 1815 Manual on dying fabric it is used with copperas to "raise the color", or make the color visible. A similar technique is used in the recipe for red, which specifies that lead oxide be boiled: ezzeich until die varb wirt ziegelvar, or "the color becomes reddish."

Many of the recipes specify chemical as opposed to organic dyestuffs. One ingredient, verdigris (a combination of copper acetate and various copper salts) was used both to produce a green color and to mute or darken bright colors. Cinnabar, or vermilion (mercuric sulfide) was another chemical used. Even lapis lazuli isn't exempt as a dyestuff. Some of the chemicals were rather dangerous; lead oxide is used in one recipe to produce a red color, and orpiment, or arsenic trisulfide, is specified when attempting to create a good yellow. Iron oxide, in the form of rusty iron, is also used to color fabric.

Gum Arabic, usually employed in the making or pigments for painting and ink for writing, is used with lapis lazuli, cinnabar and verdigris in two of the recipes to "fix" the color. According to Ploss, using gum arabic in this fashion produces a fabric which is stiff and rather brittle.

The recipes:

Red:
Wie Man varbe machet. Das ist, das man varb machet auf welherlai man wil, der nem zynober vnd reib das wol auf einem herten stain mit alaunwazzer vnd damit verb. Wil er rot varb tunchel machen, so mische si mit swarczer varb oder mit grünspat vnd se alaun da pei; das sol alles gesoten werden in ezzeich vnd presilig sol man nemen vnd sol die sieden in menschenharn vnd auch presilig mischen mit alaun, daz gemachet wirt mit ezzeich oder mit harn.

Whoever wants to dye whatsoever he wills red, takes cinnabar and rubs it well on a hard stone with alum-water and uses that to dye with. If he wants to make a red color darker, he mixes it with black dye or with verdigris and adds alum therto; then he cooks everything in lime water (vinegar?) and takes brasilwood and boils everything in human urine. Also, brasilwood mixed with alum, mixed with lime water (vinegar?) or with urine [makes a red color darker].

Blue
Swer plawe varb machen welle, der nem Lasawr in ezzeich vnd siede daz mit gumi vnd mit alaun vnd verb da mit; wil er si tunchel machen, so nem swarcz varb dar vnder, vnd plawe plumen stent in dem roggen, vnd stozze die wol vnd siude si in
harn vnd mische daz mit alaun vnd verb da mit.

Whoever wishes to make a fast blue, take ground lapis lazuli pigment in lime water (vinegar?) and boil it with gum arabic and with alum and dye therewith. If he wishes to make it dark, add black dye thereto and blue flowers (cornflowers, or "Centaurea cyanus") which stand in the field, and mash it well and boil it in urine and mix it with alum and dye therewith.

Notes from the glossary, which I assume mostly come from info in Ploss:

Lasurblau/Lasawr: The stone lapis lazuli, which in ground form was one of the major pigments used by medieval artists, was also used to dye cloth. Gum Arabic was used to help it stick to the fabric.

Minig/Menninge Lead Oxide: This is used to make a red colour. I can't find any example of it in modern use, most likely because of the danger involved, and have no information on the colour it produced.

Zynober: Cinnabar, or vermilion (Mercuric sulfide). This pigment, also used for painting, was not water soluble and produced a bright orange-red color.
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Hope that helps!

How about violet (blue and red, that has more blue than red)? Was it at all popular?
I have some violet wool lying around but I'm having problems finding out what colours were popular with the middle classes in the late 15th c.

Thanks!

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How about violet (blue and red, that has more blue than red)? Was it at all popular?

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Hi Marianne,

Sorry this post is so long in coming. I just saw your question.

Let me answer your question with a statement: recently a chemical test was done on the Unicorn Tapestries and researchers discovered that all the myriad colours that make those tapestries the works of art that they are were made from three chemicals: indigotin, luteolin, and alizarin. This indicates the use of woad/indigo, weld/dyer's broom, and madder, respectively. Blue, yellow, and red. The primary colours. You can make anything with those three dyestuffs.

Now that's not to say that everything that's *possible* is probably. Evergreen is an extremely difficult colour to make (although it is quite prevalent in the Unicorn Tapestries) and lime green is rather a no-brainer. Bright yellow is what you get when you put anything in the dyepot with weld. And madder can range from rusty reds to tomato-soup red depending on the skill of the dyer and the quality of the dyestuff.

All this long-winded garbage is to say that, yes, violet was possible. However, whether it was popular for the middle classes in the 1470s is a question you must answer for your time and place. But here's an idea...

While it is NOT true to say that "if they had the paint, they had the dye", it may be okay to assume that they wouldn't have painted peasants wearing red if peasants never wore red. So if you find period paintings of middle class people wearing violet in the 1470s in your part of the world, I say go for it!