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Author Topic: english archer impression
JimR
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posted 06-19-2002 02:55 AM     Profile for JimR     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Need help with the equipment and basic kit for english foot archers (longbows)during the WOR timeframe. I'm looking into the following; Sallet, short sleeved maille shirt, padded jack,hand and half or long sword and scabbard, shirt,braes and turnshoes from historic enterprises 15th c mens kit, would this be an accurate impression.
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chef de chambre
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posted 06-19-2002 08:15 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Jim,

It sound like you have covered the essentials of military equipment. Might I suggest, instead of a bastard or single hand cruciform sword, you get a hanger? That is a backsword, or a falchion - often at this date they are depicted with up-turned rudimentary knickle guards. They are extremely under-represented weapons that were used in proportions in almost direct contrast to what is seen in reenactment and living history. That and a buckler would be a de-rigure sidearms for a foot archer of English origin of the era. Also a ballock knife/dagger of some sort.

For impedimentia a haversack, with some sort of costrel, be it pottery, leather, or wood (or even tin), a wooden bowl, a horn spoon, a normal belt, and a pouch to go on it, and you've nearly completed your kit. Also some sort of rudimentary blanket roll would be probable, although this would probably be carried in the baggage on the march.

It sounds like you have a well thought out plan for equipment that jives with what we know to have been common from the sources we have. Congrats for doing your homework!

--------------------

Bob R.


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JimR
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posted 06-19-2002 06:25 PM     Profile for JimR     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Chef, you folks here at the forum have always been so helpful and it is appreciated. Looks like we might be pretty close to getting a group up and running before to long and we all want to get it right the first time. Also would this be appropriate kit for the leader of this unit or are there any other recommendations you or any others would make.
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chef de chambre
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posted 06-19-2002 07:40 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Jim,

Well, that is a good question. I guess it would depend on your 'personas' resources. or the generousity of your lord.

If you are the 'master bowman', then as an experienced campaigner, you could add on a bit of equipment - as much perhaps as seen in the Franco/Flemish illuminations of what most probably are 'feedmen' of lords - you know, those rather heavily armoured and well equipped archers, who represent more of the ideal than the norm from what we see of muster rolls and the like.

If your 'captain', then a longsword may not be out of place - just try to interest as many of your recruits in other options for edged weapons as possible. At some point, I will order a lovely backsword from 'Armour Class' of Scotland- they do at least one stunningly beautiful example of one. Nothing like a good example to show 'coolness factor' of an object some recruits would otherwise not think of (and I really want a good one in my collection).

--------------------

Bob R.


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Seigneur de Leon
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posted 06-19-2002 11:00 PM     Profile for Seigneur de Leon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
How common was it for longbows to be laminated of two or more pieces of wood? Or were all made from one piece? Crossbow prods were composite, so it seems logical longbows could be too.

--------------------

VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO


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chef de chambre
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posted 06-20-2002 07:09 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Seigneur,

From various legislation involving bowstave manufacture in England, and laws requireing so many bowstaves imported with any cargo, I would say no - at least not in England.

Composite bows were used in Italy, but they were recurves. Deforestation had not happened on a massive scale, so appropriate timber at least usable as a bowstave was not uncommon enough to warrent such construction. With composite crossbows, the form was used to make a bow more powerful - not an economic measure. A bow of similar construction in the form of the typical warbow would yeild a bowstave unusable by an individual.

--------------------

Bob R.


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NEIL G
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posted 06-21-2002 04:13 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Jim;

First, this is probably a stupid question, but the one set of things I don't see on your kit list is any archery equipment!

I'm assuming you have a bow, a sheaf of arrows in an arrow bag (NOT a quiver!), spare bowstrings etc etc etc.

What poundage bow are you using? That's probably worth mentioning when talking to the public, as the contrast between what these guys were using, and the poundage people can use nowadays can lead to a lot of interesting points - the legal requirements for archery practice, the deformities the skeletons of some archers show etc.

Oh, there isn't any cash on your list, either - I'd expect you to have at least some, and repro coins are easy and cheap to get.

Second, you've given a list of what your persona has, but WHO is he?

- What's his name?
- Where is he from, and what is it like?
- Who is his lord, and what is he like?
- Why is he here (...wherever "here" is?)
- What news has he heard recently? (OK, he isn't going to have to explain the whole history of medieval england, but if it's 1471 or whatever, you ought to be able to summarise Warwick's revolt, the king's flight etc etc)
- Is he a full-time soldier, or is this just a temporary service? If the latter, what does he normally do?
- How well off is he, relative to the average person?
- What does he do on his time off?

Neil


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chef de chambre
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posted 06-21-2002 08:12 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Neil,

What do you mean "difference between poundage then and nowadays"? I have at least one archer that has worked up to a 100 lb draw weight, and a second not far off that mark as well.

Opps - said too much, I just hope at least one can make it to Marietta in September.....

--------------------

Bob R.


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Friedrich
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posted 06-21-2002 10:17 AM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jim,

Here is a suggestive guideline for *some* of the items needed for an archer's impression. I apologize in that it's not intended as an archery equipment debate. It's just a list of items to consider.

English styled longbow
Preference is yew for wood. If you don't shoot often or it's a lower poundage, horn tips on the ends aren't necessary. And would reflect a common bow. A horn tipped bow will protect the strings from wearing into the bow limbs at the tips. I consider a horn tipped bow more of a high end bow (officers or noble).

Poundage:
Modern target recurves at ranges are usually in the 25-30 lb range but are useless out at 70 meters. A good start for general target is in the 40-50 pound range. General hunting in the 70ish pound range. General destruction in the 100-120 pound range. Problem with the big bows is that they are very hard to make due to severe shortage of yew stave supply. Plus bow cover (linen), spare strings, string wax, etc.

Arrows. Arrow stiffness MUST match the bow and the length you draw it to. Generic store bought arrows WILL NOT shoot correctly. Weight of the proper arrowheads plays into this. Including proper or reasonable construction methods. Most kits require 2 dozen arrows in cloth bags. FYI: Quivers (absolutely not backquivers) really didn't start until the Elizabethan era. If you really want one for safety reasons around the public, I'd use a vertically oriented tube quiver. All the 14thC and 15thC paintings/pictures I've seen, show arrows simply tucked through the belt around the waist.

Arrow materials: This is of some debate and really is more dependant on what you have available in the right spine (arrow stiffness). Probably best is ash (heavier), poplar (lighter/smoother), pine for arrows from a historical point of view. Birch in the US is more of a problem as our species has a more twisted/fracturing grain than the European counterpart. Cedar is far and away the most available and fairly consistant. But cannot handle the high stresses of the big bows.

Finger tabs:
Tabs WERE used in basic leather form although we have tried going bare with the 100 pounder. But not for long. I also occassionally use basic gloves. Watch where the seams are sewn on the gloves though.

Arm Guard:
Leather, Bone, nobles might have had ivory plate, etc.

And something safe to shoot at. I just found a great round styled, wood framed target stuffed full of dense straw. Rough burlap covered and wrapped with cord. Unfortunately the last batch used hemp cord. The latest is black plastic which I need to remove and redo but it looks really good and removes itself as a modern eyesore.

Hope this helps!
FvH

PS. Don't forget boots and an archer's sallet. Other types of sallet's don't work as they interfere with the string when released.

[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: Friedrich ]


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jsmart
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posted 06-22-2002 12:05 AM     Profile for jsmart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I always pack a spare candle for lighting things or a bit of light in the rough and a candle stub for string wax. a good string wax can be made with mixing the wax with a bit of rosen(pine sap) for a good string wax, about twenty/eighty..melt together use about anything for a good mold to pour the wax into. This will also hold bodkin points to the shaft of your arrows
spare scrap linen strips are good for making bandages to cover cuts when the fletching bites your hand on your stave hand. don't wash the bloody wraps too often as it impresses the laundresses and townspeople when you wear it...
you can always wrap a piece around your head to keep the sweat out of your eyes as the liner can only hold so much sweat... speaking of liners.... wrap a spare bow string with scrap linen and stuff it in your helm liner. wrap spare hard bread, cheese and sauage with linen scraps to keep it fresh and out of the way.. stuff it in your cup or bowl for more protection.
spare sheepskin scraps to put in your shoes to help on a long march as shoe liners..
Alway bring a "*large" cup, bowl, and spoon and a costrell for drinks. a small working axe is handy and wrap all this stuff within your blanket, tied as a "bumb roll" and your'e off!
cheers
jsmart
*I say large, as i consume vast amounts of fluids and sweat same out in the field.

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David Meyer
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posted 06-22-2002 11:57 AM     Profile for David Meyer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hello all -

Chef suggested a horn spoon be included in the mess kit (sorry if this has little to do with the archery topic).

I've had a bit of a beef with some of my living history colleagues in Germany who use these widely available horn spoons (intended for eating caviar). I try not to shake my proverbial finger at them for this, but there doesn't seem to be too much documentation on them.

It seems that in the 13th - 15th centuries, spoons of wood, pewter, and silver were quite common. The spoon's form underwent surprisingly little change in the same period, though extant examples are far to few to say "This is how it was, in saecula saeculorum, amen".

If I've missed out on the horn spoon literature, please do forward me some bibliographical info, I just don't think they were all that common. I've been wrong before though, just ask my wife!

My rough guide as far as spoons would be:

wood - lower class

wood with a pewter or silver grip, or solid pewter - middle class

silver - upper class.

Mariann, Mac's wife, makes a very nice (& inexpensive) pewter spoon. More info at:
http://www.billyandcharlie.com/misc.html

Regards

David

[ 06-22-2002: Message edited by: David Meyer ]


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Gwen
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posted 06-22-2002 08:38 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
David says "It seems that in the 13th - 15th centuries, spoons of wood, pewter, and silver were quite common.

I know a good number of pewter and silver spoons remain, but I was unaware that enough wood spoons do to be classed with the metals.

I would be interested in knowing where these extant medieval wooden spoons are, or the documentation for being so adamantly in favor of wood and equally adamant against horn.

Gwen


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chef de chambre
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posted 06-22-2002 09:53 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi David,

One of the reasons horn spoons - any horn items, really, do not leave much of an impression in the archaeological record is that horn degrades over time, especialy when exposed to damp or any moisture.

I believe there is evidence for their use in records regulating guilds and the like, and as I recal, there is a chap in the 'Mendalson Hausbuch' showing a fellow making them out of horn.

That said, wood spoons are under represented in reenactment - not all were confined to the lower classes. Both in the Metropolitan Museums collections, and in Berne (articles from the burgunderbeute), there are eexamples of a fairly delicate form of wood spoon, that is inlaid with silver wire and has other decoration that were intended for gentlemens tables.

It is interesting to note that in many English wills from the late Middle Ages, even people listed as 'paupers' occassionaly have several silver spoons listed amongst their possessions in inventories taken at their death. I supspect that these are godparents gifts given at christening however, and I doubt their use commonly by lower class people except on the most special occassions.

Pewterware in general is the mark of the prosperous middle class, and you only find it filtering down the lower strata of the third estate through the 16th century.

It is important to note that any vessels and tableware used in Medieval life had a strict order of presidence attatched to them - a note emphasised in "German Stoneware 1100-1900", which discusses and documents the phenomenon (following how stoneware went from gracing noblemens tables in the high-middle ages, to becoming a commonplace item amongst even the peasantry by mid 16th century), running from common woodenware and earthenware (horn & most wood spoons fall into this strata), to stoneware, to metal vessels of brass and pewter (where pewter spoons would fall), to finally at the top precious metals (and being 'born with a silver spoon in ones mouth').

As a for instance, the serving of wine was accompanied with ceremony - by the 15th century the wine being decanted into stoneware jugs from the barrel, which were placed in tubs of water to keep cool near to the table to be served at, thence being decanted into metal vessels placed on the table as need arose, and finally into the drinking vessal of either precious metal or glass. In a middle class continental household of the same date, the stoneware was of importance enough to often have it's place at the table - but I digress.

--------------------

Bob R.


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David Meyer
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posted 06-22-2002 11:39 PM     Profile for David Meyer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Gwen -

I've seen wooden spoons in several museums - the Stadtmuseum in Cologne has three or four, all a bit worse for wear, naturally.

The Deutsches Klingenmuesum in Solingen has a number (4 or 5) of 15th C. wooden spoons. One is all wood, and the rest have wooden bowls and metal (silver, if memory serves) handles. The grips are very detailed, obviously a luxury item. I would be happy to email photos if you would like.

A 16th C. spoon in the same form can be seen in the Reichsstadtmuseum in Rothenburg ob der Tauber.

Further examples of this type can also be seen in the in:

"Historische Bestecke. Formenwandel von der Altsteinzeit bis zur Moderne" by Jochen Amme

Again, I'm not saying horn spoons didn't exist, and of course the number of extant examples will be fewer than those made of metal. Are there any horn spoons in museum collections?

In any case, the form of late medieval spoons has little to do with the caviar (horn) spoons my living history friends in Germany are so fond of - the bowls of the modern spoons are generally too narrow and shallow.

If horn spoon makers are depicted in the Mendalson Hausbuch, I'd love a scan of any pertinent illustrations!

As for pewter, I've a small collection of spoon fragments from a Dutch 15th - 16th C. site, all of pewter. It's amazing how little the spoon's form changed in a few centuries! Unfortunately this makes dating spoons (in the non-romantic sense) very difficult. In the Germanisches National Museum in Nuremberg they mis-labeled (in my opinion) a late medieval spoon as "Roman 4th - 5th C."

Regards

David


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