i'm currently making an eight panel gown for my better half. it's a short sleeved number cut on the bias with the 3/4 add on sleeves, no waist seam, very full due to added panels to the skirt. it has a modest low rounded neckline with a front pointed opening down to about below the belly. what i percieve to have a germanic influence. yes, it's kinda a switch from the usual "i got my wife to sew a doublet for me" but hey, i can still fix most cars and kill bugs! grunt - grunt.

anyway, here are my questions:

first a construction note. should i use boning for the front opening? i was told that i have to use it or else by a costume designer. i stress the word costume. yet, on my doublet which is also pointed down the front i didn't. i just added several etra layers of stiff linen to the area with the point holes and it stands up very well in my opinion. this advice i took from one of the ordances passed in sevilla early 1500's for the markers doublets. however my advisor tells me otherwise an points out that my doublet is wrong and shouldn't wrinkle when i bend over.

so should i use boning?

if so what type?

should i stick to the extra linen technique?

and how much of a wrinkle is acceptable on the gown since it has a greater area to be pointed and is tighter fitting?

another question, i've been looking around through different books and online for images and the such of this dress and found that the sleeves seemed pinned on. however, i've come across interpretations with the sleeves pointed on.

is there evidence that i haven't come acoss suppoting the point vs. pin?

thank you for your input. i also apologize if this question has been answered allready in an earlier post. if so, Gwen, as the moderator of this section can you please lead me in the right direction?

thanks,

daniel

[ 04-17-2002: Message edited by: LHF ]

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Db

As for pinning vs pointing, it's going to depend on period and location.

If you can give me some more clues I can probably direct you to some sources and answers.

sorry about the vauge explanation.

i'm making it so it could be used for a WA event. i'm planning to join up with Bob's camp at the Maryland event. (by the by are you thinking of swinging by the east side for it?) so figure 1470 as a mean date.

as far nationality, she would be coninental. possibly swabish. one of the "filles de joie" at camp? away from camp she'll be potraying the middling class strata. perhaps the daughter or wife of a guildsman who has ties to northern Tuscany and Milan but is probably part of the empire.

i used a bastardization of the gown from the greenland find's. Norland was the one to write up on it i believe. i photo copied the patern out of book that i was able to get through the inter-library system. using that and scores of paintings, i cut a pattern for her.

it is cut on the bias as i said. it has what are called princess lines to describe it there is the central front opening with a seam going down to the floor. on either side of it are two verticle panels running parallel to the front opening with a connecting seam roughly over the nipple. this half ends at the side beneath the arm hole. the same configuration of four panels is repeated on the backside save for the central opening which is now sewed shut. the front neckline is rounded esposing only a slight bit of the smock from beneath. the back comes down a bit into the back in the form of a "V". the fullness of the skirt is achieved by adding triangular pieces twixt the bottom portion of six out of the eight seams produced; the two side seams and the two "nipple" seam and corresponding back seam. no piece was added to either the front or back center seam. the triangular pieces apex is aprox. at navel level +/- a bit, and the base of the triangle is located towards the bottom heam of the dress. the sleeves reach about mid bicep. there is no pleating at the crown of the sleeve. the armpit pieces have been left out for greater range o motion.

i used a finely woven rose coloured linen for the outershell. the inside is of a white linen/cotton blend. the fore sleeves will match the outer shell plus another will be made from a navy wool for added contrast.

i hopefully covered most of the questions that you may ask. if not shoot away please. this is my first attempt at sewing onto the female form and i could use the help. thanks.

daniel

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Db

Sounds like this is well past the pattern stage and is nearly a done deal.

To address some of your questions specifically-

• I can't think of any evidence that would support using either a literal or liberal interpretation of the Greenland gowns as late as 1470. The only thing that might come close is what might be construed as a "princess seam" in the Fouquet painting of the Virgin and child.

• All of the Greenland gowns were manufactured pretty much on the same tailoring theory, even if the patterns themselves differed by number of pieces, etc. The only gores I recollect are in the center front and center back; as I recall, none of the other pieces had gores inserted between to widen the skirt at the hem. (Norlund)

• All of the Greenland gowns both male and female are cut either on the straight or the cross, as are all of the earlier garments that I'm aware of. (Hejolfsnes, Bocksten, Varberg, St. Louis, et al). I'm not aware of any extant garment with an attached skirt which is cut on the bias.

• I'm unaquainted with any style that has a short sleeve yet leaves the armpit area open. Any short sleeve I'm aware of is closed in the armpit. In some of the mid late Italian stuff the sleeve/body junction appears to be open under and in front of the arm, but the back appears to be attached to the body. (Crivelli)

• If your instructor thinks that a doublet shouldn't wrinkle when you bend over, they have clearly never looked at a della Francesca painting, where there is some serious wrinkling going on in the True Cross frescos.

the rose and navy sounds like a nice combo!

If you can lay your hands on it, you might try to track down Jean Hunnisett's book

"Period costume for Stage and Screen- Medieval-1500" (Publisher: Players Press; ISBN: 0887346537)

From Library Journal: [i]In the preparation of this sourcebook, Hunnisett draws on 40 years of costume making for period dramas and operas. She aims to help the experienced theatrical costumer who wishes to translate surviving paintings, sculptures, and drawings of the period into authentic garments.[/]

Amazon carries the book, but kindly refrain from reading and believing the scathing customer review. I own this book and find it very helpful, if a bit conjectural at times -- I based AM's "Big Dress™" on Hunnisett's pattern and everyone involved was happy with the result. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887346537/qid=1019107007/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/102-3910144-4714549

as far as it being well past the pattern stage... yes and no. it has been put together yet it still needs to be finihed up. so hence i'm asking for help.

i've drawn up the patterns that were used and have posted them here. it is my interpretation of several paintings that have a similar type of gown in them.
http://drustynail.tripod.com/jessdress/pat1.jpg http://drustynail.tripod.com/jessdress/pat2.jpg

the first image has all of the pieces spread out save for the gore which i did not repeat six times. the second has them put together with dahed lines representing the seams.

i used the Norland sketch as a start and worked my way through painting and the such looking for evidence of seam lines. the reasoning for the bias cut may have been taken out of context but i was under the understanding that dresses of this period round 1470 were cut on the bias to allow a more tappered fit round top.

i came across several paintings with the princess seam like the Madonna that you mentioned. another that i came across that i interpreted as having princess seams was this one.
http://drustynail.tripod.com/jessdress/unkwn.jpg

it appears to be an overdress. what looks like a seam runing down over her breast is visible 'neath her arm mid tricep. following the line past her hips are what i percieved as gores inserted into the framework of the dress.

as far as the armpit being left open, that was influenced by her desire for ventilation and movement and probably a picture of one of embleton's reenactors with a similar design. were any of the italian design short sleeved?

thanks for the colour choice comment, they were my suggestions

so are the above patterns totally off base?

what should be done to alter them?

should the whole project be scraped as a interpretation of a historical design and be labeled as fantasy medeiviloid cotuming?

what about the boning question?

i went ahead and requested a copy of the Hunnisett book from the library but that'll take time to get.

i hope that i've been able to explicate myself a bit better now. i've found that i work better with images than words. so any further advice that you could muster would be great.

daniel

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: LHF ]

p.s.

the links don't work just by cliking on them. i got them to work by copy/paste into the address feild.

if that doesn't work i could e-mail them to you. let me know, thanks.

daniel

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: LHF ]

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Db

Do I think this is a bona fide historical cut? No.

Do I think this is "horrible medievaloid fantasy costuming?" No.

Have I seen much, much worse? YES!

Remember, I'm not the expert on all of this, so take my opinion for what little it's worth!

I suggest you finish the gown that you've clearly put so much time into, because it is in no way horrible. There are gowns in the Embleton book that are *much* worse IMHO. However, I would suggest spend a bit more time researching and asking questions before you start another gown.

10 years ago when I wrote Gerry about the book, he admitted there were garments in the book that had been rendered obsolete by recent research, and we've come a million miles since that time.

#1 rule in serious reenactment/reconstruction- ASK QUESTIONS, DON'T JUST COPY WHAT YOU SEE!! Unless you ask, you have no idea if the garment you're copying is a flight of fancy or based on serious study. Even if it's based on serious study, you have no idea if the person doing the study knows how to interpret the data, is a competant fabricator of the item, made changes intentionally or unintentionally, etc. I can say in all honesty that I have never seen a sleeve with an open underarm like you show in your pattern. I'm not saying they didn't exist, just that I've looked at hundreds of paintings and I've never seen one like that.

I'd say have a look at the Hunissett book before you start another gown. Try making the rise on the cap of your sleeve very shallow (like 3" instead of the usual 4" or 5"), and the armhole come up very high into the armpit. This will give you lots more range of motion over a standard sleeve set. Also, ask your instructor to show you how to make a built in gusset under the arm. This is very standard theatrical patternmaking design which allows for full freedom of motion without pulling up the garment body.

Hope that helps!

Gwen

oops, forgot to answer about the boning. I've never used boning on the inside of the lacing strip, as it makes a hard spot that the lacing will eventually wear through. Actually, I've never found that I *needed* boning along the edge. I use spiral lacing the way it's shown in the paintings and make the eyelets no more than 3/4" apart. I've never had problems with gaposis, pulling or wrinkling using this method.

thanks for the heads up.

and also for not ripping my experiment to shreds.

i'll go ahead and finsh the dress as is, sans boning. i'll also review Hunissett's book before i start another. this is my first attempt at making woman's clothing and such shall be labeled as an "experiment".

i've been looking round the net for more images and can only find pictoral evidence for pins as the method used to attach the fore sleeve to the upper sleeve body. i believe that i got the idea for a single point attachment from a reconstruction in one of the groups over in germany. so i estimate that the pin attacchment method is a safe recourse?

by the by, the image that you couldn't bring up was a detail from St. John Altarpiece by Rogier van der Weyden. It is the woman in blue next to the bed in the background of the left panel.

another question: would this be suitable for say entry level LH partiicipation?

thanks,

daniel

who hasn't been alive long enough to form a humble opinion.

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Db

quote:

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i've been looking round the net for more images and can only find pictoral evidence for pins as the method used to attach the fore sleeve to the upper sleeve body. i believe that i got the idea for a single point attachment from a reconstruction in one of the groups over in germany. so i estimate that the pin attacchment method is a safe recourse?

another question: would this be suitable for say entry level LH partiicipation?

---

I have a bad scan of a low-quality picture that seems to have tied-on sleeves (the attachment points are at several places around the arm-hole, at least), in this illustration of a
bathhouse servant from the 15th century.

but there are many more illustrations of pinned sleeves, plus it is easier to get the sleeves on and off and you don't have to make any tiresome buttonhole-tie things with pins. if you've left off the short sleeves entirely, tho, it may be easier to use ties.

And it would be perfectly fine for the Marietta event. In DC in September, you may well not want sleeves anyhoo.