Just as a starter, I'm having a great deal of trouble with my hunting horn, and would love to find out how to do one better.

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I do not practise, but am greatly interested in the topic. While wildly popular during the course of the high and late middle ages, falconry doesn't float my boat as the critters are high maintenence and training, and make poor companion animals (in my opinion). I like falcons & hawks, but keeping them isn't my bag.

I like to be close to my critters - our horses will nose in our backs and "baby elephant walk" behind us around the pasture when not engaged in graze mode.

Hounds on the other hand, I grew up with and raised. As soon as we have a place with a little land (forseeable future), we planed on greyhounds or whippets. Coursing isn't allowed in some states, but I'm not adverse to it so long as bunny gets eaten (by me). I don't like hunting if the critter is wasted ,just my own objection against killing without purpose. I'd have liked a mastiff, but they are too short lived - I get attatched to my furred companions.

Now Boar hunting, on foot, with hound, spear & crossbow I am keen to try. There is an animal that will do you serious harm if it lays tusk on you, they are ill-tempered (succulent as well), and were such hunting is allowed, they are dangerous pests. Little to no qualm about sticking one of those.

Hunting calls themselves are interesting, and I (and many other scholars) think that most late Medieval military calls on horns & bugles would most likely be based on hunting calls. I believe calls are known from the era we portray (correct me if I'm wrong Dave Key).

A Late Medieval hunt would make a lovely event. Hunt one day, and feast the next.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi Hugh,

I do not practise, but am greatly interested in the topic. While wildly popular during the course of the high and late middle ages, falconry doesn't float my boat as the critters are high maintenence and training, and make poor companion animals (in my opinion). I like falcons & hawks, but keeping them isn't my bag.

I like to be close to my critters - our horses will nose in our backs and "baby elephant walk" behind us around the pasture when not engaged in graze mode.

Hounds on the other hand, I grew up with and raised. As soon as we have a place with a little land (forseeable future), we planed on greyhounds or whippets. Coursing isn't allowed in some states, but I'm not adverse to it so long as bunny gets eaten (by me). I don't like hunting if the critter is wasted ,just my own objection against killing without purpose. I'd have liked a mastiff, but they are too short lived - I get attatched to my furred companions.

Now Boar hunting, on foot, with hound, spear & crossbow I am keen to try. There is an animal that will do you serious harm if it lays tusk on you, they are ill-tempered (succulent as well), and were such hunting is allowed, they are dangerous pests. Little to no qualm about sticking one of those.

Hunting calls themselves are interesting, and I (and many other scholars) think that most late Medieval military calls on horns & bugles would most likely be based on hunting calls. I believe calls are known from the era we portray (correct me if I'm wrong Dave Key).

A Late Medieval hunt would make a lovely event. Hunt one day, and feast the next.

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Hi Chef,

Yes, hawks are a terrible drain on reources, both time and money. They take over you life, literally. I seldom make it to tournaments (nor anything else) from October to March, but you know what? It's worth it.

And no, hawks aren't companion animals, but then they aren't supposed to be. Frankly, I don't really consider my greyhounds as pets either: To me, they're all my hunting partners. Granted, you can cuddle with greys (while doing so with a big hawk is guaranteed to have unpleasant results), but I don't want pets, per se. To me, the fact that hawks can't be companions is offset by the awe I feel at holding and working with a wild and fierce predator; almost a pure killing machine. They are endlessly fascinating, and I so wish I could read their vicious little minds. My current bird, Eleanor of Acquitaine (I couldn't help it; she's the most regal and magnificent bird I've had), is staring at me right now, and it's fun to try and picture things through her eyes.

There are lots of places that tell you you mayn't course game with hounds, but it's almost certain that people are ignoring that rule and doing so. I was told by a representative of my state game commission that coursing with greyhounds isn't permitted because it's unlawful to hunt using dogs, but he was unable to respond when I asked why, then, it was lawful to practice foxhunting, a sport I enjoyed for many years in this state.

I've seen a lot of lure chasing over the years (I'm actually the lure operator and huntsman for a group that does it), and believe me, it's nothing like the real thing. Watching the sheer speed and ferocity of greyhounds doing what they were bred to do is awesome. The woman who taught me falconry calls it "terrestrial falconry".

I'm with you on wasting prey, however (as you can probably tell from my sig line); I loathe and detest people who hunt just to kill and then waste the animal they killed. What I kill goes into me, into my hounds, or, more usually, into my hawk (it takes a lot to feed a hawk in the off season). It was sort of cool: My first hawking kill went to feed my bird, but the second I cooked for myself using a rabbit recipe from _Take a Thousand Eggs..._; I felt a real connection with my medieval ancestors at that moment.

I think your idea about a hunting event is a good one, and it's one I've long wanted to do, though I've never found enough people interested to try it.

Also, like you, I've long been fascinated by boar hunting. I even went so far as to look into places to do it, but most of the places I found have animals so tame that hunting them can scarcely be called hunting; it's more like butchery. Also, it seems clear that some good dogs are called for (not greyhounds, and I don't know what we have that's equivilent to the medieval alaunt; todays great danes have been so "improved" by the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned AKC that they're useless for this), and I don't know quite what to use.

I'm also very interestd in hunting calls. I've just completed a translation of parts of "A Tretyse off Huntyng" into modern English, and am now tackling "Master of Game". Both talk about horn calls, but I'm not sure I'm interpreting them correctly. Cummins has a fair section in his recent book on medieval hunting, but he doesn't make the actual *practice* very clear (at least to me), and I'd love to have insights from others on how to replicate some of these.

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Just to clarify, I am a great believer in having working animals work as they were intended. that said, I also enjoy a close relationship with any animal in our family.

In the case of our horses, considering what we intend to use them for, it is absolutely vital they trust us completly. We have had them since before they were yearlings, and in essence we are sort of mother substitues for them. I find it completely fascinating that I, a predator by nature, who's remote ancestors once hunted our horses remote ancestors for food have such a close bond with herbivors, and have that complete trust.

There is nothing so touching to me as going to the stable early in the morning on occasion, and when they are not quite awake but lying & resting, go in the stall, and crouch down and have them shove their head in your lap akin to a dog lying across you as you sit on the couch, in a gesture of greeting & affection.

That said, I'm working their butts off until they are no longer of working age.

My hounds have to be able to sprawl on the couch with me and vegitate, or go out and play, as well as do thier intended work.

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Check with your local Game Commission. Here in Florida, hogs (so long as they're on priate property), are deemed livestock; and therefore may be dispatched however the owner of the land allows.

I know many states have a great number of exceptions to laws about hunting with dogs on private property--just something to consider.

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The Royal Armouries do a number of hunting-related interpretations, including falconry, hunting with hounds, and taking the (polystyrene!) boar with lance and sword from horseback.

I've done a little falconry (with a highly unmedieval Harris Hawk!) and we're fortunate to have a couple of really good falconry centres over here, too.

What aspects of medieval hunting are you particularly interested in?

Neil

PS - I think modern "wild" boar probably aren't much more than a pale shadow of their medieval equivalents...which is kind of worrying, bearing in mind how bloody-minded the current variety are!

Sorry if this comes out a bit vague ... it's from memory I'm afraid ...

The way in which I've read the hunting calls Cummins details in the Hound & the Hawk is essentially morse code. There is no interest in varying pitch ... it is the beat pattern that matters ... which is useful with hunting horns as opposed to modern trumpets etc. where there will be a wide natural variety of pitch and a limited scale.

What sort of problems have you got with the Hunting Horn ??

The Master of Game describes what a good Hunting Horn should look like and this is all available in print ... I can look up the refs if you'd like ... but it's a turn of the century book so Inter Library Loans are going to be the best bet.

I'd be interested to see you translation of "A Tretyse off Huntyng" if you'd be prepared to send/post it?

On the subject of the Master of Game ... I don't think he actually mnentions hunting calls ... he says he will but doesn't.

If you want a real picture of the Medieval hunt you have to see the whole Devonshire Tapestry ... not just the bits you see in books ... it is magnificent!

Hunting with dogs is a hot topic over here at the moment ... just been banned in Scotland. However whilst they aren't used for the kill my Deerhounds are spectacular when they do chase. Not as fast as a Greyhound but the size just adds to the whole thing.

We've done some Hunt based displays over here but not the actual hunt. I was amazed how positive the reaction was!

I agree as to the Alaunt ... you're more likely to get a Destrier than one!

quote:

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Originally posted by NEIL G:
Hi Hugh;

The Royal Armouries do a number of hunting-related interpretations, including falconry, hunting with hounds, and taking the (polystyrene!) boar with lance and sword from horseback.

I've done a little falconry (with a highly unmedieval Harris Hawk!) and we're fortunate to have a couple of really good falconry centres over here, too.

What aspects of medieval hunting are you particularly interested in?

Neil

PS - I think modern "wild" boar probably aren't much more than a pale shadow of their medieval equivalents...which is kind of worrying, bearing in mind how bloody-minded the current variety are!

After all, I seem to recall some of the sources recommending plate armour as the best way to dress if you're going after them with a boar spear.

---

Don't worry about the Harris; I fly a red-tail, and that's no more authentic. I'd fly a Gos if I could make my lifestyle adapt enough, but other than that I love the Red-tails and don't much want to fly anything else.

I'm interested in a wide variety of kinds of hunting, including falconry, coursing, par force hunting (I did foxhunting on horseback for many years, but no longer have a horse... getting back to that is one of my greatest goals at the moment), and hunting with crossbow (I have a lovely replica crossbow and am currently trying to get someone to make me quarrels like the ones in Gatson Phoebus; all the quarrel makers I know will only make war points).

I think you're right about the boars; I seem to recall a quote about the medieval ones being more dangerous than lions. Fortunately, I have hardened MacPherson plate to wear when I finally get around to doing this!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Key:
Hug,

Sorry if this comes out a bit vague ... it's from memory I'm afraid ...

The way in which I've read the hunting calls Cummins details in the Hound & the Hawk is essentially morse code. There is no interest in varying pitch ... it is the beat pattern that matters ... which is useful with hunting horns as opposed to modern trumpets etc. where there will be a wide natural variety of pitch and a limited scale.

---

Yes, I got that part. I guess I just have trouble reading his notation; actually, the notation in Tretys (e.g.: Tronronronronronront tronronronronronront tront tront tronronronronronront) seems easier to read, though I'm sure it's just because Cummins notation seems odd to me.

The other thing that bothers me is why the calls in the manuals seem to lack any consistency; you'd think that with something like this, it would be important to do it like everyone else to show that you're knowledgeable; ditto with terminology: If everyone calls the curee the curee and you call it "the skinning" you're sure to be seen as being a novice, however skilled you may other wise be. I understand that there would be regional variations, but I guess I just would have expected more similarity in something as quintessential as horn calls.

quote:

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What sort of problems have you got with the Hunting Horn ??

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Well, I had one made from a cow's horn; rather crude, really (no decoration, just a baldric), but a first attempt. The maker installed a mouthpiece of some sort (it looks like it came from a trumpet), and neither I nor anyone else (including modern trumpet players) can get a reasonable tone out of it. I see pictures of horns in all the iconography, but nothing about what kind(s) of mouthpices were used, if any. I have a lovely picture of one from the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but the narrow end is broken, and if there was a mouthpiece it's gone. I'm also having difficulty understanding how the straps/cords (I've seen both in the iconography) were attached from the baldric to the horn itself. There's a lovely picture in Cummins, but this particular detail is hard to make out. Do you know of any complete examples extant?

quote:

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The Master of Game describes what a good Hunting Horn should look like and this is all available in print ... I can look up the refs if you'd like ... but it's a turn of the century book so Inter Library Loans are going to be the best bet.

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You no longer need to do that for MG! A more recent critical edition of the work has been published as a doctoral thesis by Dr. James McNelis. In addition to his critical analysis (in which he does what I believe to be the first true comparison of all of the existing versions), he includes the entire text, plus a pretty good glossary. I have a copy, and there's an on-line publication service from which you can purchase copies. If you're interested I'll try to find the URL.

quote:

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I'd be interested to see you translation of "A Tretyse off Huntyng" if you'd be prepared to send/post it?

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I have only done two sections, the parts referring to hunting the hart and hunting the hare. Is there a way I can post a Word document on here? If not, I'll be happy to e-mail you the document. All I've done, however, is to re-write it in more modern English (although I left some of the ME terms, I footnoted them where I did so) in order to make it easier to read, and you don't sound like you need that.

quote:

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On the subject of the Master of Game ... I don't think he actually mnentions hunting calls ... he says he will but doesn't.

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Oh, that's too bad! I have some from Gaston Phoebus (and from Tretyse), but I wanted to compare them with MG! I haven't gotten that far through it yet.

quote:

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If you want a real picture of the Medieval hunt you have to see the whole Devonshire Tapestry ... not just the bits you see in books ... it is magnificent!

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Has it ever been published in its entirety?

quote:

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Hunting with dogs is a hot topic over here at the moment ... just been banned in Scotland. However whilst they aren't used for the kill my Deerhounds are spectacular when they do chase. Not as fast as a Greyhound but the size just adds to the whole thing.

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I know it has; I'm so sorry to hear of that. I've been following the news from the Countryside Alliance, and I just can't believe what's being done. It's so deeply saddening.

I like deerhounds, too, however I believe that to be one of the breeds which has been (over here at least) so far removed from their original function as to make them pretty useless for coursing. Thank god we at least have the greyhound race tracks as a steady supply of functional hounds, because what they've done to show hounds over here is sickening!

quote:

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I agree as to the Alaunt ... you're more likely to get a Destrier than one!

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I actually spoke with a friend who's an accomplished breeder of sighthounds about recreating the breed (with a tad more care than Capt. Graeme used with the Irish "Wolfhound"), but the process was just too long and involved; too much of what the Alaunt was has been lost. We had talked about bringing together greyhounds, great danes and mastiffs. It's too bad; that's a breed I could really love.

quote:

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One comment on the collars ... how are you attaching the leash. If you look at alot of the illustrations you'll see the leash running from hand to collar, through a swivel loop (rather than a D-ring) and back to the arm where it is wound around the upper arm to secure it ... the result ... open your hand and let slip your dogs ... very effective without the need for the modern coursing catches.

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I do much as you've described. My greyhound's collars have a ring on them, and I slide a leash with a loop on one end through the ring while the loop is around my wrist. I then hold the free end in my hand until the quarrey has enough "law", and then just let go of the free end. When not ready to course, I just tie the free end to the loop with a falconer's knot (essentially a modified slip knot that can be tied one-handed).

I also had a reproduction collar made; you can see one of my hounds wearing it on my web page.

I confess, however, that the use of collars in period confuses me, and this is a subject I'd like to understand better. Some of the paintings in Gaston Phoebus show greyhounds with collars in the chase, and others show them without. The same is true in Turbeville. The same is true of the raches. I don't understand why this is; is it artistic convention? Do you remove the collar only with hounds you trust more? Do you keep the collars on your more valuable hounds so you can identify them later?

And coupling: This is a very basic concept I don't quite get. What's the point? We never used coupling with the packs of foxhounds when we hunted (though we still referred to "couples" of hounds). It seems, from the descriptions, that the couple was just tied to the hounds; no one used a leash except the Lymerer. But wouldn't the hounds get tangled with that couple between them? On trees, if nothing else? I would love to hear other insights into this.

Sorry to drag on so, but this is really one of my favorite subjects in the world, and I've never found anyone else interested in the medieval aspects of it before!

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Hi Hugh,
If you have a web site, you can upload your word file and use the regular URL syntax (example: www(dot)mydomain(dot)com/filename.doc) then file and Dave should be able to open it if he has MS Word or another app that reads the format.

Jenn

Sighthounds are amazing to watch. I have only had the chance to see them lure course however, I would like to see them in the field with live game once. I have also fox hunted (and being "blooded", while barbaric by some people's standards was quite a thrill) and I agree that a live hunt is definitely more fun than a drag hunt. I am not a greyhound owner, though I have friends with them. I'm completely and totally owned by an Australian shepherd whose work ethic puts me to shame

quote:

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Also, like you, I've long been fascinated by boar hunting. I even went so far as to look into places to do it, but most of the places I found have animals so tame that hunting them can scarcely be called hunting; it's more like butchery. Also, it seems clear that some good dogs are called for (not greyhounds, and I don't know what we have that's equivilent to the medieval alaunt; todays great danes have been so "improved" by the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned AKC that they're useless for this), and I don't know quite what to use.

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I was looking at some illuminations from Gaston Phoebus' book and while I don't know much about the medieval alaunt, I can tell you that the dogs they are using to hunt boars have an uncanny resemblance to the "hog dogs" kept my redneck cousins.

The Florida wild pig is not truly wild, being descended from domestic stock that went feral, but they are well known for their intelligent, agressive and nasty natures. Wild hog hunting in Florida swamps is still a dicey, primitive hunt, even with your dogs. Makes good eating though If you want a boar hunt about as close as you are going to get in the modern US, find a good privately owned Florida hunting camp and be prepared to sign a waiver.

quote:

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Originally posted by Acelynn:
Welcome Hugh! Maybe it's just me, but I really like running into someone whose interests extend beyond just making armor and learning to fight. (No slap at those of you who construct and fight--I admire your skill, I just like a bit of variety)

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Well, I hate to pop your bubble, but I do an impression of a 14th-century English Knight, so I do a lot of fighting, too, but at least I don't make armor! <grin> Seriously, however, I think you're right, there's so much more to most medieval people that just doesn't get addressed. I also spend a lot of time studying medieval games, singing, and other aspects of what a knight should do. Hunting's just one of the coolest parts; I'm afraid I have an almost medieval obsession with it.

quote:

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Sighthounds are amazing to watch. I have only had the chance to see them lure course however, I would like to see them in the field with live game once. I have also fox hunted (and being "blooded", while barbaric by some people's standards was quite a thrill) and I agree that a live hunt is definitely more fun than a drag hunt.

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Oh, you won't believe the difference between coursing and lure chasing (I hate to dignify it by calling it any kind of coursing). In lure chasing the "prey" turns the hound, while in coursing the hound turns the prey. It leads to a very different experience, believe me, especially with one of the more vicious and kill-hungry breeds like greyhounds and borzoi (I know, the propaganda is that greys are sweet, gentle, loving creatures. It's a half-truth: they're only that way with people.)

Don't get me wrong, lure chasing is better than just letting your hounds sit on the couch all day, and I'm heavily involved in a lure chasing (and racing) club, but it's not very similar.

And I, too, have the "mark" from being blooded; it was when I was a teenager (my parents were enthusiastic about foxhunting, so I was able to get an early start). It was a very emotional moment for me, in a way, and the impression of it has really stuck with me. As for barbarity, well, some people just don't have any connection with the real world. They think food comes on styrofoam trays.

quote:

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I was looking at some illuminations from Gaston Phoebus' book and while I don't know much about the medieval alaunt, I can tell you that the dogs they are using to hunt boars have an uncanny resemblance to the "hog dogs" kept my redneck cousins.

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Wow! that's really interesting. Do you know anything about these hounds? They probably aren't "registered AKC hounds" (good!!), but my experience is that a lot of such houndmen still know a lot about what goes into their hounds. How big are they? Do they use any protection for the hounds when hunting boar?

quote:

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The Florida wild pig is not truly wild, being descended from domestic stock that went feral, but they are well known for their intelligent, agressive and nasty natures. Wild hog hunting in Florida swamps is still a dicey, primitive hunt, even with your dogs. Makes good eating though If you want a boar hunt about as close as you are going to get in the modern US, find a good privately owned Florida hunting camp and be prepared to sign a waiver.

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I have a friend from Florida who said the same thing, but I haven't been able to get down there yet. I'm in PA, and that's quite a haul (and getting a hawksitter isn't the easiest thing in the world!). I'd be very interested in more details of how they do it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hugh Knight:
Well, I had one made from a cow's horn; rather crude, really (no decoration, just a baldric), but a first attempt. The maker installed a mouthpiece of some sort (it looks like it came from a trumpet), and neither I nor anyone else (including modern trumpet players) can get a reasonable tone out of it. I see pictures of horns in all the iconography, but nothing about what kind(s) of mouthpices were used, if any. I have a lovely picture of one from the Philadelphia Museum of Art, but the narrow end is broken, and if there was a mouthpiece it's gone. I'm also having difficulty understanding how the straps/cords (I've seen both in the iconography) were attached from the baldric to the horn itself. There's a lovely picture in Cummins, but this particular detail is hard to make out. Do you know of any complete examples extant?

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There's the Savernake Horn in the British Musuem. It's suggested date is 11th-12th century, with the metal bits having been added in the 14th century.

If you go to the british musuem search engine, compass, and search on savernake, you can get a better description and some pictures of it. http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/index.html

quote:

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Originally posted by AnnaRidley:
There's the Savernake Horn in the British Musuem. It's suggested date is 11th-12th century, with the metal bits having been added in the 14th century.

If you go to the british musuem search engine, compass, and search on savernake, you can get a better description and some pictures of it. http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/index.html

Mitake.

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Oh, that's great, thank you! That's not the one I knew about; the one I was thinking about is white and heavily carved, but this one is great.

Interestingly, it either has no mouthpiece (other than the metal fitting itself) or else the mouthpiece is broken. Very, very interesting.

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quote:

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Well, I hate to pop your bubble, but I do an impression of a 14th-century English Knight, so I do a lot of fighting, too, but at least I don't make armor! <grin> Seriously, however, I think you're right, there's so much more to most medieval people that just doesn't get addressed. I also spend a lot of time studying medieval games, singing, and other aspects of what a knight should do. Hunting's just one of the coolest parts; I'm afraid I have an almost medieval obsession with it.

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Oh you didn't pop my bubble, I'm just glad to see the extent of your interests. In the LH environment--whatever the period of choice-- martial things are often the primary area of focus for many. There are very good reasons for this, but it is just neat to see someone reaching a bit further than collecting weapon books

quote:

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Wow! that's really interesting. Do you know anything about these hounds? They probably aren't "registered AKC hounds" (good!!), but my experience is that a lot of such houndmen still know a lot about what goes into their hounds. How big are they? Do they use any protection for the hounds when hunting boar?

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None of them that I know are any type of registered. The ones they have are similar to the so-called pit bull. The American Staffordshire Terrier is a cleaned up showy version. The American Pit Bull is the working version but still recognized by the AKC.

Warning: Please take the following with a grain of salt, because it is not researched!
My uncles tell me that the name terrier is a misnomer that comes from the time peasants weren't allowed to own hunting dogs/hounds, so they called them terriers instead so as not to get in trouble. Again, I don't really now the facts on this so take it as you will

Here is a few site with pictures of the type of dogs my uncles have: http://www.users.qwest.net/~paba/#pics

The dogs generally only weight about 40 pounds but they are solid muscle and make a heck of an impression. Their jaws lock down and they don't let go--ever. The dogs wear leather or web collars when they hunt--no spikes. My one uncle says if the dog isn't agile and smart enough not to get hurt while hunting the genes don't need to get passed on.

I can't really give you hog hunting details, I'm not a fan of slogging through palmetto scrub with meat eating pigs everywhere--I much prefer the wind in my ears on a fox hunt--but I do know that often they just send the dogs after them and stand back until the hogs die because the hog dogs tore their throats out. They carry a gun pretty much only as insurance, the dogs do the work.

I am not an AKC fan either--as with horses--the show ring has ended up ruining good breed traits and exaggerating ridiculous ones. That's why my Australian shepherd is from unregistered working lines that help herd cows, not the ones prancing in the show rings.

quote:

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Originally posted by Acelynn:
None of them that I know are any type of registered. The ones they have are similar to the so-called pit bull. The American Staffordshire Terrier is a cleaned up showy version. The American Pit Bull is the working version but still recognized by the AKC.

Warning: Please take the following with a grain of salt, because it is not researched!
My uncles tell me that the name terrier is a misnomer that comes from the time peasants weren't allowed to own hunting dogs/hounds, so they called them terriers instead so as not to get in trouble. Again, I don't really now the facts on this so take it as you will

Here is a site with pictures of the type of dogs my uncles have: http://www.users.qwest.net/~paba/#pics

The dogs generally only weight about 40 pounds but they are solid muscle and make a heck of an impression. Their jaws lock down and they don't let go--ever. The dogs wear leather or web collars when they hunt--no spikes. My one uncle says if the dog isn't agile and smart enough not to get hurt while hunting the genes don't need to get passed on.

I can't really give you hog hunting details, I'm not a fan of slogging through palmetto scrub with meat eating pigs everywhere--I much prefer the wind in my ears on a fox hunt--but I do know that often they just send the dogs after them and stand back until the hogs die because the hog dogs tore their throats out. They carry a gun pretty much only as insurance, the dogs do the work.

I am not an AKC fan either--as with horses--the show ring has ended up ruining good breed traits and exaggerating ridiculous ones. That's why my Australian shepherd is from unregistered working lines that help herd cows, not the ones prancing in the show rings.

Ace

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quote:

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Originally posted by Acelynn:
I can't really give you hog hunting details, I'm not a fan of slogging through palmetto scrub with meat eating pigs everywhere--I much prefer the wind in my ears on a fox hunt--but I do know that often they just send the dogs after them and stand back until the hogs die because the hog dogs tore their throats out. They carry a gun pretty much only as insurance, the dogs do the work.

I am not an AKC fan either--as with horses--the show ring has ended up ruining good breed traits and exaggerating ridiculous ones. That's why my Australian shepherd is from unregistered working lines that help herd cows, not the ones prancing in the show rings.

Ace

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Well, now isn't that weird. On another list I was just talking to someone about using pit bulls on boars, and I said I didn't think they'd be fast enough based on what I knew, and now here's independant confirmation that I was wrong. Huh. You learn something new every day. Thank you very much for sharing that, I appreciate it.

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Quote: "On another list I was just talking to someone about using pit bulls on boars, and I said I didn't think they'd be fast enough..."

When hunting boar here in Florida, speed isn't so much an issue. The palmetto scrub isn't easy to move swiftly through--no matter what species you are; and, a boar will just as soon face a dog than run from one. I've seen boars taken here that weigh in excess of 300lbs. (this is no exaggeration--I saw him weighed before he was dressed--it took 10 .30-06 rounds in the head to kill him). No need for an animal like that to run from a 40# dog--at least not in his mind...

Three years ago, I made a lovely meal for 12 out of a 120# boar. He actually charged me in open ground after I shot him the first time.

So boys and girls, today's lesson is: if you want to do a medieval boar hunt in FL, use your crossbow and/or boar spear, but don't leave home with out a powerful handgun...

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Originally posted by Reinhard von Lowenhaupt:
When hunting boar here in Florida, speed isn't so much an issue. The palmetto scrub isn't easy to move swiftly through--no matter what species you are; and, a boar will just as soon face a dog than run from one. I've seen boars taken here that weigh in excess of 300lbs. (this is no exaggeration--I saw him weighed before he was dressed--it took 10 .30-06 rounds in the head to kill him). No need for an animal like that to run from a 40# dog--at least not in his mind...

Three years ago, I made a lovely meal for 12 out of a 120# boar. He actually charged me in open ground after I shot him the first time.

So boys and girls, today's lesson is: if you want to do a medieval boar hunt in FL, use your crossbow and/or boar spear, but don't leave home with out a powerful handgun...

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Ah, now that explains it! Just shows that to recreate medieval activities you need to recreate medieval conditions, too. But I'm glad to see my estimation of the pit bull's value here was only wrong because of the conditions; now I don't feel *quite* so dense...

And while I haven't hunted boar with a spear yet, I guarantee *never* to try it without backup from a very powerful firearm!

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Ah, now that explains it! Just shows that to recreate medieval activities you need to recreate medieval conditions, too. But I'm glad to see my estimation of the pit bull's value here was only wrong because of the conditions; now I don't feel *quite* so dense...

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I am far from a being an expert on medieval hunting conditions, but my impression from Turberville's Art of Venery and Gaston Phoebus was that boars, then as now, preferred areas with cover. In other words, you don't generally hunt boar in the open but in the forest. Without knowing what kind of underbrush/groundcover existed where the boar hunt was taking place, we still might be making a judgement jump.

Knowing what I do of hog dogs, I would be willing to venture a guess that in wooded, uneven terrain they would always have an advantage over a boar. I don't think a forest is the ideal place for sigh hounds to hunt, but I could be very wrong and I'm quite willing to be corrected The illuminations from Gaston Phoebus seem to suggest that fewer greyhounds were used in boar hunting, but that might be an artistic license, and I have not read large portions of the text.

As a side note though, Rheinhard is very correct about the density of palmetto scrub. The 'stems' also grow sideways along the ground and are very woody, which makes things even more uneven and treacherous. Then add the wonderful plant known as Spanish Bayonet. I have had the leaves of it pierce through heavy jeans and it will slice bare flesh like a razor.

So in addition to a couple of good hog dogs, your boar spear and gun, snake boots or leather gaiters might not be a bad adddition to your hog hunting equipment list.

In the Persia of then and the vast expanse of the Middle East of now, the Saluki was used in concert with a falcon to hunt gazelle (two nicknames: Persian Greyhound Gazelle hound). The falcon would fly out to spot the prey. The Saluki in turn would watch the falcon and when it began to circle the hunt was on.

Sight hounds hunt by sight and are generally very swift of foot so open ground to sparsly covered ground tends to be more ideally suited for hunting with these types of dogs. Due to their light build (there are some exceptions like the Borzoi (most of the ones I knew were quite large), the Scottish Deerhound, and the Irish Wolfhound), I wouldn't use a gazehound to hunt boar. You need a hound with muscle/power, size and a serious set of jaws like the "pitbull", the mastiff, etc... Any gazehounds on the hunt might be used to keep the boar at bay as only sight hounds and their "games" can do while the powerful dogs attacked.

As an example:

We had a Saluki named Devi (just her nickname, her showname was much more impressive and our kennel was not overbred to match AKC standards) , who loved to run and play "catch me if you can". She would run at you (full speed) and just come within reach and dodge past you and do the same from behind. This was a "hit and run" game she loved to play with the humans. I have seen other members of our kennel play "hit and run" tag team games with each other.

I don't know if your greys have ever played this game with you Hugh, but it has me wondering if this is what they would have been used for on an ancient boar hunt.

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Originally posted by Acelynn:
I am far from a being an expert on medieval hunting conditions, but my impression from Turberville's Art of Venery and Gaston Phoebus was that boars, then as now, preferred areas with cover. In other words, you don't generally hunt boar in the open but in the forest. Without knowing what kind of underbrush/groundcover existed where the boar hunt was taking place, we still might be making a judgement jump.

Knowing what I do of hog dogs, I would be willing to venture a guess that in wooded, uneven terrain they would always have an advantage over a boar. I don't think a forest is the ideal place for sigh hounds to hunt, but I could be very wrong and I'm quite willing to be corrected The illuminations from Gaston Phoebus seem to suggest that fewer greyhounds were used in boar hunting, but that might be an artistic license, and I have not read large portions of the text.
Ace

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Actually, greyhounds are shown right beside the alaunts in Gaston Phoebus, and that's very confusing to me. Sighthounds just aren't built for that kind of sport. They're killing hounds, not fighting hounds, that's what the alaunts are for. I'm really suprised that the book shows them at all.

And I have no idea what the "palmetto scrub" is like in Florida, but the woods of the middle ages had a lot of open spots, else the raches wouldn't have been of much use, either.

*I* certainly have no intention of using greyhouds on boar!

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