[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Ulfgar ]

--------------------

Ulfgar, have you tried pattens? They would definitely help decrease wear.

--------------------

You're right about marching in pattens. Of course many soldiers are shown marching *barefoot*, and I don't know how many modern people would be up to that!

I don't think that a pair of turnshoes would have lasted a year. It would of course depend on how many times you got them repaired.

Karl Knutsson Bonde, a Swedish 15th century king, declared ca 1450 that all the Swedish farm helpers (I don't know the correct terms in English)had the right to have four pairs of shoes every year plus regular pay, but I guess that this must have been some kind of minimum.

My own pair of turnshoes have a ca 5-7 mm leather sole and they are worn quite a lot after only one week on Wisbys cobble stone streets.
I've thought about trying clump soles but I'm not sure how they are attached, and if they where used during the 14th century. Does anyone know anything about this?

Crossbow Mike

--------------------

--------------------

Is there an easy way to obtain a copy of "Museum of London shoes and pattens"?
Do they have a website maybe?
Any more books from them that is worth buying?

I have most of the crossbow literature that is possible to get, but I'm trying to find/buy more books about clothing, weapons and 14C stuff, so any suggestions is velcome.

Crossbow Mike

--------------------

Go to there web page at:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/

look under the following series:

Medieval Finds from Excavations in London

--------------------

Thanks for the tip.

I have tried to order it from Boydel & Brewer a couple of times now this evening, but something goes wrong.
I have sent them a message about it so we'll have to see how it works out. I hope this works out because they have some books that seems nice.

--------------------

--------------------

I've ordered Museum of Londons "Shoes and Pattens" book from Amazon today, as I said earlier, Boydel & Brewers online ordering didn't work.

--------------------

This is probably a damnfool question, but the consensus above appears to be that turnshoes don't last long, which accords with my own experience.

However, if I buy a pair of leather-soled shoes today, without any form of nails, heel taps etc, I usually get about a year's wear out of them if I wear them for work most days.

Now, I'm wondering why there's such a difference. First thought are that the moden shoes are better made, but that's a bit glib, since shoemaking technology hasn't changed greatly since the c19th as far as I know, and everybody in the ACW seems to bitch about how fast their shoes wear out, too.

Is it simply that I'm mostly walking around on carpet and dry paving stones, whereas they'd be walking around on beaten earth/grit which would be more abrasive for the soles?

Any thoughts?

Do you wear the same shoe all the time? Did our medieval counterparts?

I don't know about you, but I have more than one pair of shoes (no quite like Mrs. Marcos) ranging from leather upper/leather sole, to leather upper/rubber sole, to nike sneakers (12 years old btw: sole is rubber/ upper is nylon). I don't wear these shoes over all sorts of terrain nor do I wear on specific pair all the time.

My medieval turnshoes have a considerably "thin" sole. The only shoes that I have worn that are close in composition are ballet slippers, not toe shoes, but the flats. I had a pair that lasted about a year. I wore those ALL over the place on all sorts of surfaces(fashion thing). They eventually wore through, I just replaced them with another pair.

I work mostly at a desk, but no more than a medieval craftsman like a weaver would be sitting at his loom, maybe less.

Soles are about 3mm leather, and wear through in about 12 mths of use, give or take...

Even allowing for the above, they seem to be lasting a lot longer than the turnshoes discussed above.

My experience with turnshoes of 1 thickness of leather, is that they will not last a whole year even if worn only on weekends. I know two people, one a fighter and one a serious dancer, who have worn holes in the balls of the foot within a few months.

I wonder if there is a difference between the quality of commercial grade sole leather and more ordinary thick leather. I know that sole leather was traditionally hammered on a lap stone to consolidate the fibers of the leather before the shoe was sewn, but the exact nature of this process is a mystery to me.

I doubt that corded soles would last any longer than plain leather. The cords seem intended to improve traction for foot combat, but I can imagine they would be badly shredded after a session in the lists.

I can read Swedish

but I have never seen this book

Why must all/many of the more interesting books be so old? It isn't easy to find a book that was written 1938.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Crossbow Mike ]

--------------------

I can try and help you with translation (sp?) if you have a scanner.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Crossbow Mike ]

--------------------

--------------------

I don't know about soles, but the over leather of today is stretched much, much more than it was in earlier times.
Modern shoes will hold their shape better.

I've read that many shoes from archeolgical digs looks like they came from people with very big and fat feet.

--------------------

Julian, you heard right about modern sole leather. it is "compressed" making it much stiffer and longer wearing than say the leather used on the uppers.

--------------------

Db

quote:

---

Originally posted by J.K. Vernier:

My experience with turnshoes of 1 thickness of leather, is that they will not last a whole year even if worn only on weekends. I know two people, one a fighter and one a serious dancer, who have worn holes in the balls of the foot within a few months.

---

thats very odd...I've never worn through a pair of soles yet. I've blown out the stitching tons of times (went through two pair at Pennsic), and one pair I made for someone else has the leather actually getting worn through (her feet are oddly shaped and it was really cheap leather).

I have one pair of shoes thats several years old, and it got worn every weekend for two years, and now is a loaner pair so still gets a fair amount of use.

I found, though, that what kills them is walking on pavement. One trip to the car in my leather soled shoes will create enough wear that you can actually see it. If they're wet and THEN you go on pavement, its even worse.

I'm very careful not to wear them on pavement, sticking to grass/dirt/sand whenever possible, or wearing my pattens (which have now seen two years of solid wear and and are looking like it ). Now, I'm not a dancer or fighter, but I am a cook, and I wander around ALOT.

Apprentice contracts say that you get a new pair of shoes per year, so it makes sense that they should last that long, being worn every day. My amateur efforts at cordwaining last about the same before the linen thread rots out. Restitch and you're good to go for another season (I routinely do this every year just for good measure)

or so my experimental archaeology says . Of course its WET here, that might have something to do with it too (ie leather doenst dry out, so doesnt get as brittle? maybe?)

--AM

--------------------

--------------------

Joseph