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Sorry I missed this post the other day.

It is impossible to accurately generalize and say that all coats were lined or that coats were never lined. The archaeological record is incomplete at best and inventories are only useful up to a point. Certainly fabrics intended as linings show up in household inventories, and we see linings in period artwork. The garments from Herjolfsnes may have been lined with linen or edged with fur, it's hard to tell from what's left. The lion's share of surviving garments from this period (and there are very few) are lined, but none of them are coats per se. There's the pourpoint of Charles of Blois, the golden gown of Queen Margarete, the fragments in the Museum of London and the Herjolfsnes finds. There's also the bog guys (Tolund, Bocksten et al) but they are not coats either.

I can tell you from practical experience that lining a garment is one of the best ways to make the garment lie nicely and to make the edges look finished. Lining will help it slide on easier, be warmer and make it longer wearing.

No, a cotton/linen blend is not "period" but neither is an army blanket; however they are fine inexpensive choices for you to practice on and to work your pattern out in. Make the coat unlined and see how you like it. If you want it warmer, or to lay better, line it with your cotton/linen blend. Wear it for a while and see how it goes. By the time it wears out or you're ready to move on you'll know what you like or don't like about it, in addition to gaining good hands-on experience making up a practice garment.

Looks like you can't lose to me!

Gwen

Just out of curiosity, how is the material from an army blanket not period? I'm pretty sure it's 100% wool. Is it the weave or the weight perhaps? This worries me because I was counting on using old wool blankets as a cheap source for material.

I hate that my cotton/linen isn't period, but I got most of it for $1/yard at Wal-Mart and to me it looks indestingushable from 100%linen. When did cotton start being imported to northern Europe? I think I heard somewhere that it was around the early 14th century. My knowledge of textiles is somewhat limited, as that is not my main point of study.

Where is a good source for domed wood buttons? I'd like some covered in the same material that my cote is made of.

I'm trying hard to improve my sewing skills, but my sister/sewing instructor often finds it much easier to just do it for me!

BTW, I'm using the Period Patterns men's cotehardie set to make this. Anybody have any critisisms on this? (Besides the fact that it is a very difficult pattern to sew.)

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When did cotton start being imported to northern Europe?
Cotton has been used in Europe for stuffing/padding since the 12th C or before, it just wasn't used much for woven textiles until much later. I addressed this point over on Armour Archive a while back -http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000677.html

I'd like some covered in the same material that my cote is made of.
Actually, you don't need a wood base to make the buttons. I believe there is a good explaination of how to make historically correct buttons in the MOL book on Textiles. Once you get the hang of it they're pretty easy to make.

I'm using the Period Patterns men's cotehardie set to make this. Anybody have any critisisms on this?
Not a criticism so much as a caveat- those patterns often don't turn out like the pictures, so save yourself some heartache and do a mockup out of cheap fabric before you cut into your good stuff.

Good luck!

What type of material are you using for lining wool and linen garments? I have read of both silk and linen being used.

I was also wondering what type of silk would have been used for lining? the equivalant of raw silk?

And finally do you line your linen cote's, and if so with what type of material?

thanks

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What type of material are you using for lining wool and linen garments?
I use unbleached linen to line everything. There are good inventory records available of unbleached "for linings", so that's why I use it. It's a good weight, makes the garments lay nicely and it's what I believe was most used for middle class garments, which is what my company offers. Anything upper class (like Chef's pleated coat) gets lined with black linen. Unbleached linen for my stock stuff has sort of become my "trademark".

I was also wondering what type of silk would have been used for lining? the equivalant of raw silk?
I can't answer that with much certainly, although I suspect more of a silk satin. I've heard arguments that raw silk isn't historically correct, and the reasoning is sound-modern people like the rough slubby texture, but the period aesthetic liked smooth, shiney fabrics so a silk that was made up of short ends and had a slubby texture wouldn't be "fashionable". I have not seen enough evidence to convince me either way. I were high class enough to warrant the use of silk I would use silk satin.

And finally do you line your linen cote's, and if so with what type of material?
The same as the other garments, with unbleached linen.

I line paltocks/pourpoints, cotehardies, doublets, coats and gowns because I believe they were most likely lined in period, based on records like inventories, sumptuary laws, paintings and archaeological finds. I add an additional flat lining to the doublets to give them a very smooth silhoutte. I don't line the G63 because most people wear them as a tunic replacement, not as a gown. I have made several lined ones though and they are the bomb.

Hope that helps!

Gwen

Yes, that helps a lot. I have recently started lining my wool stuff and have been very happy with the final look. I am currently working on a linen cote and will try lining it, I think the overall look will be much nicer.

Phillipe

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[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: fra.hulettaes ]

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: fra.hulettaes ]

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satin seems like nasty stuff to have next to your skin.

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If you are thinking of a modern synthetic non-breathing satin, you are right.

If you think of a pure silk satin, it's a glorious material of strength and breathability. It will sweat stain, but...
I also have never had the gummy problem mentioned above with silk but as I have not to my knowledge used "raw silk" that may be why.

I have also THINK I "remeber reading" somewhere (though being at work, I can't put my hands on the references) that satin, sateen, etc are terms that have been applied to various types of fabric depending on time frame and location.

Perhaps someone with more textile expertise than I could help you lock this down a bit more.

Ace

"Satin" weave has long floating warp runs, which give it its characteristically smooth, shiny surface.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
AFAIK, satin is a weave, not a fibre. Satin can be woven with silk, cotton, linen, etc.

"Satin" weave has long floating warp runs, which give it its characteristically smooth, shiny surface.

Gwen

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Thank you very much, Gwen, I didn't realize this; as Ace suggested, I was thinking of that nasty modern stuff. So what do *you* think the inside of the arming doublet was, then? Why was that weave more advantageous for the lining of an arming doublet?

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Originally posted by J.K. Vernier:
I have used a cotton satin before, in a modern context, and I can see why this weave is a good choice for linings. The extra smooth, slippery surface is a result of the long floated warps, and it is probably the way to get the softest against-the-skin texture from any sort of fiber, so it would be the obvious choice for lining an arming doublet meant to be worn without a shirt, just as a comfort consideration. I've never seen a linen satin available, so I don't know if it would compare well to the cotton as far as comfortability - but I would guess that a linen satin would be nicer to wear than a plain-weave linen lining.

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Ah, excellent info, thank you.

By the way, are you the same person who wrote the armor article for Singman & McLean's _Daily Life in Chaucer's England_ (originally _The Chaucerian Handbook_, and yes, I have both!)? And the same fellow who made the nice Italian legs for Jim Adrian (Hrothgar) about ten years ago? If so, are you still making armor?

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Originally posted by J.K. Vernier:
Yes, that's me. I'm in California now, and I'm not armoring much these days. If you are still in touch with Jim Adrian, give him my regards. I never got to hear from him if the greaves actually worked properly - I was on my way to Grad school when I shipped them.

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Jim's left reenactment, pretty much for good as near as I can tell. He's busy teaching chemistry at a college in upstate NY. He wore those legs to the first St. Michael passage of arms (almost ten years ago!) and they worked just fine; he was the belle of the ball. Glad to see you're still around, and I hope you get back into armor making!

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