1) Doublets that have no skirt invariably have the holes for points situated around the bottom, close to the edge---which seems to fall, more or less at the waist.

2) Doublets with a skirt have the lacing holes for points around the bottom of the skirt edge---which seems to fall, more or less, at the hip or even lower.

This puzzles me because I have seen modern interpretations of "skirted" 15th c. doublets with the lacing holes at the waist---not along the bottom of the skirt. Is this another period style, or is it a modern convention to suit hosen that are commonly reproduced with lace holes at the waist?

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Mind if we step back a bit ...

First of all 1460-1480's is actually a very wide time span for clothing ... particularly if you intend to mix Southern European (Italian) with Northern (Flemish and German).
Each region has very particular styles and more importantly and somewhat inveitably a time of significant changes in clothing ... and the length of hose!

First, I am skeptical about how many doublets of c.1460-1470 were made with a waist seam at all, in most of the detailed illustrations I can think of there is no seam, often a crease line but not a seam (as is visible down the centre-back and on the collar). What you describe as skirted I'd just call a basic doublet which reaches to the hip. On that style of doublet the points invariably are positioned at the hem so that the hose point along the hip.

Hose that point to the waist are (at the risk of being corrected) not really common until later in the century ... so doublets which stop at the waist would surprise me for the earlier period (have you refs.??) .... this is all from memory so I'm happy to be corrected.

However by c.1480 longer length hose (and so shorter length doublets are starting to make an entrance. But beware ... the Schilling Chronicles (for example) which show doublets and hose of this sort were illustrated between c.1470 and c.1520 .... so there is a wide period with alot of style changes.

As to the skirted doublets with the points at the waist but the hem lower ... generally either a misunderstanding of jackets and other over garments (understandable as man of the early re-enactor tailors were ex-c16th & c17th re-enactors ... at least in the UK ... where this skirted, waist pointed style was normal), a misdating of c.1500+ MSS (very common in alot of agricultural pics) ... all typically modern re-enactment mistakes which have become engrained as 'normal' ...

Basically if you want a Northern European doublet of c.1460 then ignore the 'skirt' altogether. Make a 4-panel doublet which reached to the hip, attach the points at the hem to the hose which also just reach the hip ... and if freedom of movement is required .... loosen the points and leave a gap (filled by your shirt).

[ 04-27-2001: Message edited by: Alasdair ]

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[ 04-27-2001: Message edited by: Yeoman ]

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question for you...

what style or region are you going for?

from my research (heavy on the italien and hispano but light as far as the northernlings go) there is a very great regional difference. this may acount for the pointing questions.

have you also thought of the sleeves?

let me go home and check out some of the references that i can give you acording to the "mediterraneo" stock of doublets. i want to say that i have come across earlier than 1480 as the date of waist pointed doublets in the south.

daniel

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Db

quote:

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"First, I am skeptical about how many doublets of c.1460-1470 were made with a waist seam at all, in most of the detailed illustrations I can think of there is no seam, often a crease line but not a seam (as is visible down the centre-back and on the collar). "

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how about the illustrations in Talhoffer's fechtbuch? i haven't sat and looked through all of them but most appear to have a waist seam. also look at Piero della Francesca's "Victory of Heraclius over Chosroes" (finished by 1466). there's a man with sheild in the center on foot who has parti red/green split hose and a "mauve?" doublet. his does have a waist seam.

Alasdair, as far as the italien waistline being high i have come across as early as the late 60's. here are two examples "April" by Francesco del Cossa c. 1470-75, "Camera degli Sposi" by Mantegna c. 1465-70.

from my research with the italiens and hispanos there are so many differences in style within the "south" between one state or duchy or kingdom and another; even within them proper. yes, there are basic stlyes because of the human form. so how can we acount for these differences and afix a tag of what is "in" or the usual with an avoidance of digging up every etreme mode of fashion as a counter to the arguement? how do we determine this?

have fun,

daniel

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Db

So that said ... yep use a seam if you so desire .... they will make a better fit but I'd not say that they are required.

Always useful to be corrected ... too much 'from memory' and over generalisation I'm afraid.

here's the reason. about two years ago i made my first doublet reconstruction/interpretation. it has an atatched four piece peplum to a four piece body. the back of the collar comes down to a "V" and the collar is four pieces; center seamed at the back a seam at each sholder matching. the sleeves are detachable with the seam running down the back of the arm to above the elbow; the rest is left open to the wrist. the wrist is closed by points with another set further up the opening about mid arm. the whole is attached to the doublet body with points. the front closer of the doublet is also closed with points.

the seam placement are docummentable through the work in the Talhoffer Fechtbuch, Pierro della Francesca, Genttile Bellini, Mantegna, etc.

here's the reason why i brought this back up. when the points are drawn/painted, they either appear at the hem or somewhere below the waist seam on the peplum; though most frequent is the hem placement. i haven't been able to come across any documentation of having them above the waist seam with a peplum in use, which annoys the tar out of me since i placed the points above the waist seam on my doublet.

i am now beggining to piece together for my group down south a clothing guide using paintings as source and my line drawings as pattern reconstructions. i've had someone allready make their doublet with the point holes above the waist seam even after i said that this may be wrong. so could this question be answered before anyone else makes a doublet and perpetuatates a possible misconception.

thank you folks.

daniel

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Db

I discovered early on that modern men don't generally like walking around with their butts hanging out of their clothes, so I moved the point attachment up because it provides better flexibility without having to untie the back points.

This is a perfect example of why why you should ALWAYS check your sources and NEVER copy someone else's reconstructions.

the funny thing is that i never tie the points on the back and my butt is usually hanging out. i never liked the feeling of my hose ridding up when i bend over so i leave them untied for comfort.

here is one of my drawings.
http://drustynail.tripod.com/jessdress/mandoub1frnt.jpg

i didn't put in the point holes for the hose yet and i still need to clean it up. as soon as i scan/clean up the other images, i'll post them.

so i need to put in the point holes round the lower third of the hem like the man with split hose in "the Victory of Heraclius over Chosroes" by della Fancesca.
http://drustynail.tripod.com/jessdress/detail_vicofherc.jpg

i'll do that. overall, does the shape look all right to you?

thanks again,

daniel

p.s.

grrrr... i wish i knew of a way to post images through tripod without getting some sort of error! pages work well, however images don't. Jenn any ideas?

please copy and paste the address onto a new window in order to view them.

thank you.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: LHF ]

p.p.s.

i went ahead and updated the pic with the pointholes. so let me know if that's o.k.

on a separate note i should get Hunisett's book by this friday. does it also include men's clothing?

since i'm more comfortable with men's clothing the first section that i'm going to work on of our guuide will be the men's section to include shirt, braise, hose, doublet, hood, and coif; these are some of the items that i have a working model of. could i send you an e-mail with some of my rough sketches for you to look over before i go through all the trouble of cleaning up and such? actually if anyone else woud like to help i would appreciate the input.

thanks,

daniel

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: LHF ]

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Db

You get what you pay for. (real mature I know, but I have a strong dislike for any Net service that is free, for just this reason... that an an over abundance of ad banners).

A lot of the free net services time out the sessions, so unless you have a real account (some monetary offering to the corporate alter), linking to these visually will only work for a short time, then it's "broken link" city.

Looks like your stuck posting URLs.

BTW- this relates to "free-mail" accounts too. Some folks who register with the board who use a freemail account will often not get their passwords from the server.

~ Jenn