can someone please lead me in the right direction. i'm wondering about the "correctness" of my points.

the part that i enjoy more than wearing the clothes is making them. right now, what i use as points for my doublet and hose leather is latigo lace with agilets fashioned out of (5/32" ?) brass tubbing. the tube is glued in place and usually dosen't come off.

my questions are as follows:

is latigo o.k.? i've read references towards leather points being broken and having to be replaced and also using leather points from a doublet to bind a prisoner's hands. also in the white co. guidelines (thanks bob) there is "white leather" referenced. what is this white leather? can other colours be used?

if leather is not suggested what other material?

as far as the agilets: does it matter that the tip doesn't tapper to a point? i have cut them approx 1" long and rounded smooth the tip in order to not tear into the pointhole every time i point up.

bob mentioned that the originals were afixed with a small rivet. i haven't tried that yet and opted for crazy glue. i've also come across paintings in which it appears that at the end of the agilet there is a loop to which the point is fastened to.

any suggestions on construction or further research would be greatly appreciated.

The predominant term for the metal cones on the end of points is "chape". You'll find this word used most often in the archaeological and historical reference books. Most surviving examples are of copper alloy, what we think of today as "brass" or "bronze". The difference between the two is brass is usually an alloy of copper and zinc, where bronze is copper and tin. Other metals are also mixed in, but in trace quantities.

Truth be told, we don't have much information about medieval leathers. Surviving examples don't tell us much because they are usually recovered from buried middens (trash heaps). There may have been a medieval equivalent of "latigo" but we really don't know. Even terms for types of leather don't seem to be consistent.

Surviving chapes are conical. I don't think I've ever seen one that's tubular. Also, they are predominantly made of wedges of sheet metal formed into cones, so they have a seam, unlike seamless tubing. Some have small holes, whether they were for rivets is a guess, they could just as easily be for thread attachment. A couple of examples survive with their rivets, but this does not mean that ALL chapes with holes were attached with rivets. Most surviving examples in the MOL Dress Accessories book do not have holes.

Leather seems to have been used for points, but in a "bifurcated" strip form as opposed to "thong" form. By that, I mean a narrow tapering strip of leather, split from one end, nearly all the way to the other. Braided cord was also used, prompting the possible necessity of stitching the chape to the end.

Given the good number of chapes without holes, it seems likely that many were attached with some type of glue.

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Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock http://www.historicenterprises.com

please tell me more about the "bifurcated" strip form. this piece of leather is it similar to the same piece of leather that i've seen used in pointing shoes? the leather is split almost all the way just leaveing a tab of unsplit leather at the end as a catch. the two strips are passed through the point holes with the tab preventing it from going any further. this may be a rehashing of what you said, but i do want to clarify.

as far as the braided cord: what type of material is suitable and what colours?

it was suggested to me to use the cones from tandy leather (item #145601)
http://www.tandyleather.com/prodinfo.asp?number=0145601&variation=&aitem=46&mitem=65

they are of a rolled brass sans seam but they have a similar shape to yours. would this be suitable for a minimum standard? if not what gauge of brass sheeting should i use to make my own chapes?

or could the chapes be left off all together?

by the by, i'm a chem major with a mild interest in metals (excuse the pun it wasn't intentional). i enjoyed your intro to your reply with the explanation of copper aloys because we were making brass out of post '81 pennies not too long ago in our lab.

have fun,

The description of the Tandy brass cone does not say "no seam", it just doesn't show the seam in the pic. These look similar to the cones we begin with for our "stock" points that we sell thru Historic Enterprises. We make them smaller though, by pushing them into holes in a block of wood.

When I make them from scratch I use thin brass, about 30 ga.

Cord should be linen or hemp, but cotton is easier to find. Most medieval colors seem likely for points. Tough to say what's most typical.

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Cheers,

in my experience, leather doesnt work so good in that it shreds and isnt really washable. Latigo especially would stretch, meaning your hose would fall down .

Some of our gals have used leather lacing for the front of their dresses (its what they had handy) and changed as quickly as possible for cotton or linen cording.

While I agree that a leather lace would not be the best choice for lacing a dress, there are many types of leather that would be fine for pointing a doublet. Any leather point is subject to stretch, of course, the key is to let them stretch til they don't stretch no mo'.

I don't know about anyone else, but I remove my points from my hose prior to washing. Otherwise, they end up a tangled mess. I recommend the same with gown laces. I don't recommend washing leather points. Why would you leave them in your hose during washing anyway?

I find that some very strong attachment is necessary to connect chapes. Crimping would be unadvisable on hose/doublet points, mostly because of the amount of stress they're subjected to when pulled out of the eyelets. I don't feel that historical examples would only be crimped. They'd come right off.

Glue should not be a staining issue, unless you have a habit of standing in the rain for extended periods. Most hide glues need heat to melt in addition to moisture.

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Cheers,

Jeff, any recommendations on leather for points? I am asking primarily for Bob's arming doublet or do you think we should stick with the regular points?

Jenn

Jeffery thanks for the heads up on the chapes. i'll give it a try.

leather points seams to be referenced frequently for the use of labourers. since my portrayal is of a grunt i chose leather.

AM- as far as the strecthing goes. i cut my laces from the tail to head of the hide. in my expirience working with leather a cut from spine to stomach stretches more.

i usually just tie the front of my hose to doublet points keeping the back ones untied. o.k. so it gives me a droopy butt when standing but when bend over to pick somthing up at least i don't get a wedgy from my hose riding up with my doublet.

i really haven't expirienced any breaking or stretching from my points. i also wear a pair of thigh high riding boots which i point up aswell. being heavier than the hose and in constant motion i would suspect that they would put the most strain on my points. yet they haven't. i'll probably keep these as leather points.

next time i'm at a fabric or craft store i'll check for cloth cord. could it be waxed in order to strenghthen it?

There is evidence for waxing arming points and this makes sense for strength and security; see "How a man shall be armed" in Edge and Paddock or Ffoulkes.

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Cheers,

quote:

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Originally posted by hauptmann:
AM-
Glue should not be a staining issue, unless you have a habit of standing in the rain for extended periods. Most hide glues need heat to melt in addition to moisture.

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silly boy, you forget where I live!
my hide glued box sides discomboobleated in the ambient moisture of an insulated but unheated shop over the winter.

but I digress. I am delighted to hear that leather (the right leather) works for points!

Forgive him, he's a California native, and blond to boot. Mighty cute, but slow on the updraft sometimes....

Tell me, what type of hide glue were you using?
There are some manufactured "hide glues" that are not like the stuff made by boiling animal bits.

Also, remember that wood is subject to all kinds of warpage and distortion stresses, which can pop joints over time no matter what the climate or glue used.

I doubt that lace chapes would be kept in similar conditions (if you treat your clothes well), or be subject to quite the same conditions when not actually being pulled through an eyelet.

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Cheers,

the trick is to use thin brass (as Jeffrey said, 30 ga or so), and punch the 2 holes for the rivet before rolling the chape around a pointed mandrel (read: awl, icepick or whatever). I simply stick the holes in the brass with a small pointed punch (Thin nail, etc). Once rolled (using a light hammer to push the metal down neatly), I poke the lace into the chape, after having put a drop of glue on the end of the lace (I'm using a fingerloop cord) so it will not fray loose around the rivet. Stick a length of brass wire through the holes and the lace, cut both ends of the wire nearly flush with the chape, and hammer lightly to pein the rivet. It is difficult to make small rivet heads neat, but surviving examples I have handled aren't much better than my efforts.

However, the latigo I've seen has that odd russet dye that tends to run when it gets damp for quite awhile, so I'm not sure how good something like that would be for clothing. (I know how hard it is to get a latigo stain off of a light colored horse's coat...)

Enjoying this discussion immensely.

quote:

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Originally posted by hauptmann:
Well, excuuuuuuuse me.

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quote:

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Tell me, what type of hide glue were you using?
There are some manufactured "hide glues" that are not like the stuff made by boiling animal bits.

Also, remember that wood is subject to all kinds of warpage and distortion stresses, which can pop joints over time no matter what the climate or glue used.

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It works great on wood, and is easy to sand/scrape clean, but the slightest bit of moisture makes it go. Yes, the boards might have warped to add insult to injury, but I was pretty careful to use very well seasoned white oak and stored it over a winter to hopefully limit the change.

anyway, back to points...
I dont doubt for a minute taht different kinds of hide glue would have different properties. This stuff, for example did not have the smell that I've heard folks describe when THEY used hide glue.

meself, I like the idea of the rivet. If I remember correctly, there's a number in the MOL of book that are done that way?

beleive me AM, i feel your pain i live in south florida. though we are expiriecing a drought down here i've stood many a day in the rain (plus i was scraping the mold off of my boots after my last tromp thru the muck in march.)

my last event was at viscaya in march. between me sweating the first three days and getting soaked the last my points did bleed a little staining the inside lining of my doublet and top of the hose (doesn't detract cuz it's covered by the peplum). i had used a dk brown latigo though. but wouldn't the "originals" also bleed?

Jeffery, here's something else. i was looking through my copy of "hispanic costume" and found the following references to the following types of leather in points...

deerskin (1483)
kidskin (1493)
lambskin and kid for arming (1527)

was there much of a reginal difference between materials used by the cultures of around the Medi. and those up north?

also mentioned was that the chape had to be well perferated and tagged. does that mean riveted?

and here's som'n else...

"every aglet [chape] was to be so firmly attached to its ribbon that it would not fly off, on pain of 200 maravedis fine to the maker (1541)".

let's see with todays current rate of inflation would anyone care to venture a guess?

by the by, solid brass chapes were also mentioned in the ordances of 1527. have any turned up earlier?

have fun,

A form of glue used in serious woodworking was based off of a cheese rather than reduced hide. I think it is mentioned in Cennini (? probably spelled that quite wrong!) . Like many things regularly used in art & craft in the Middle Ages it is quite toxic I am told (but then the best glues usually are), but it is not going to disintegrate on you. I am told that at finds where organic material is present the glue remains intact even when the boards have largely disintegrated.

quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi AM,

A form of glue used in serious woodworking was based off of a cheese rather than reduced hide. I think it is mentioned in Cennini (? probably spelled that quite wrong!) . Like many things regularly used in art & craft in the Middle Ages it is quite toxic I am told (but then the best glues usually are), but it is not going to disintegrate on you. I am told that at finds where organic material is present the glue remains intact even when the boards have largely disintegrated.

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Cennini also mentions druggist leaf glue, fish glue, as well as goat leaf glue (made of trimmings of muzzles, feet, sinews and many clippings of skins; boiled in water until reduced by half, strained and molded like jelly, then dried. Said to be used by painters, saddlers, and "ever so many masters". he even specifies that its good for joining bits of wood together.)

Theophilus also describes hide glue, fish glue and cheese glue to similar effect.

so yes, Casein glues might work, and they're appropriate. do we know that its the casein glues taht are found in the digs you mention?

--AM

White Leather :
Yes, 'White' Leather is generally alum tawed leather ... as made by Whittawers. The main thing though is that traditionally tawed leather is not bovine ... it's deer, goat, sheep, cat, even dog ... there is a list from the Guild Ordinances for London in the late C15th which lists these. It also laments the lack of good quality leather of this sort and details the use of white leather and other tawed leathers for points.
The other tawing process involves oil ... which will give you buff leather etc from recollection.

One thing to remember/consider in discussions about leather colours ... 'White' means alum tawed, 'Red' means unfinished leather and 'Black' means finished tanned leather ... but not invariably!

Points: both fibre and leather ... the following is an extract from one of the Paston letters...

Edmond Paston II
TO JOHN PASTON III 1471, 11, 18
" ... iiij lacys of sylke, ij of on colore and ij of an othere, price viij
d.; iij doseyn poynttys, wythe, red, and yelow, price vj d.;

And this from Edward IV's Household Accounts

To Thomas Hatthe oon off oure wardes to have the parcelles of stuff here after ensuying of the yift of oure said Souverain Lorde the Kyng for his apparaille and arraye, that is to witt, ... poyntes laces and riban of silk for girdelles weying in alle iiij unces, di' groos of leder poyntes, ...

I'm also pretty sure that the Accounts for Richard III's Coronation have quite a few references to different types of points.

I'll try to fish out what I can

i've just made a batch of leather points for my doublet using about a 2-3 iron piece of lt brown "red leather" me thinks. it's a little stiff now but should soften up with use and some sweat.

i first cut a 1/4" strip about a foot long. i then cut the tip at an angle to ease in pointing. i then set my strip cutter to 1/8" and cut right down the middle to about 1/2"-1" from the other end.

it works great! there is no visible outward difference from these and the laces i was using before. however when i upoint the tabs are visible and i like how they look alot! i'll let you all now how they wear after a day of trompinp about in them.

no chapes though. i'm still looking for a local supplier down here. would they allways have been used even with leather?

i'll try to post a pic to have you all take a look.

please continue any other tid bit that should come up.

thanks so much

Perhaps the aformentioned style would be more suited to equipping leather points?

Are there any examples/evidence of flat-woven material being used to make points, as opposed to round?

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Take a look at the Charles de Blois pourpoint. all the points on the inside are fabric except the ones in the center back which are leather

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Doug Strong
doug-strong@comcast.net

http://armourresearchsociety.org