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Author Topic: Fabric Questions
Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-13-2001 01:03 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
1. Is worsted wool acceptable for 15th century clothing?

2. Was cashmere available @ same time period, I know the goats were.

Just wanted to know, working on expanding my wardrobe to a complete outfit! maybe two


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Gwen
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posted 03-14-2001 12:31 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In modern terms, worsted wool uses only the longest wool hairs, which are spun and woven. This gives a smooth, hard fabric with few of the "pokey ends" which make cheaper wools scratchy. Modern wools are mechanically (stapled) sorted as they are combed, and I'm not sure how that would have been done without the mechanical staplers. I'm fairly sure that to some extent it could be done by hand, but I don't know if hand stapling is as effective as machine stapling. I would speculate that the highest grade medieval wools would have been made of the longest, finest hairs, with the shorter and coarser hairs being used for the lower grades of wool. To answer your question if worsted wools would be acceptable for 15th C. clothing, I would say yes, for any portrayal that could afford garments made of finely woven and finished wool.

As for the availability of cashmere, doesn't that wool come from goats from Turkey or some place?

Gwen


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-14-2001 12:04 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Gwen, while knowing a fair bit about sewing, I'm not the best expert on materials. I've found several places that sell worsted wool at reasonable prices. I'd always heard that finer medieval wools were woven better than some wools are today, and thought worsted might be okay.
Yes, cashmere comes from the Kasmir Goat, from the region of that name in Turkey. They species thrives in very rocky and arid conditions that sheep can't survive. The species has been around for at least 1000 years, I just couldn't find any documentation of 'wool' imported from that area. I know other materials came that way on the trade roots, just not sure about wool. The website for the Fabric Club is: www.fabricclub.com/store/Default.asp
they have cashmere cloth available at $35/yd.
I know it's expensive, but it lays so much nicer than most wools.
If anyone happens to come across any documentation of wools coming from the Ottomans, please let me know.
Thanks. Alasdair

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Gwen
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posted 03-14-2001 08:08 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If the wool comes from a goat that lives in Turkey, I'd say nix on the cashmere...

The quality of English wool is legendary. I've posted more than you probably want to know about 15th C. wool under "15th C. wool and the wool trade"
http://www.wolfeargent.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000100.html

Hope you find it to be of some use!

Gwen


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-14-2001 08:27 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for all of the help. I've also found a new source for linen. www.wovenfabrics.com
the company is M.J.Cahn Co.Inc. out of NY.
I've ordered other material from them before, and they send out samples too.
They currently have Belgian natural linen 45" width for $3.00/yd with a 25 yd. minimum. They also have 54" wide white linen for the same price/minimum.

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Gwen
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posted 03-14-2001 09:40 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Please be careful when dealing with that company. I used to buy from them until they started sending me seconds and charging me for 1st quality.... and accusing ME of damaging the goods! They also had a habit of quoting me one price on the phone and billing me for another price with the shipment.

All I can say is CAVEAT EMPTOR when dealing with those scumbags!!!!

Gwen


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Friedrich
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posted 03-14-2001 10:34 PM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Can you recommend a quality source for such linen and wool based on your experiences?
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Gwen
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posted 03-15-2001 03:24 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Try http://www.timelesstextiles.com/

It's only cost effective for them to put the expensive stuff up on their site, so I'd recommendi calling them and asking them what they have.You can do this several ways:

*Ask what they have available in $4/$5/$6 per yard wool pieces- they usually have some around.

*Ask what they have in inexpensive linen right now.

*Ask if they're running any specials.

*Ask if they can give you a better price if you buy a specified amount (5 yards, 10 yards, 20 yards, whatever).

DO call the store number, not the office.

DO- be pleasant and reasonable- you would be amazed how far just being nice will get you with some companies.

DON'T call during a high traffic time, like a weekend. 4PM on Wednesday is much better if you want good service.

DO try to order as much as you can at one time. Get a group order together and you'll not only get a better price, you'll save on shipping.

DON'T expect them to give you a great deal if you want a 2 yards of a very specific color. You're much more likely to get a deal if you can say "I'd like to spend $4 per yard- what do you have at that price?" or "I need 40 yards of blue wool- what kind of price can you give me?"

DON'T be a goon and expect good service. Mary is a friend of mine, and I know what she goes through with members of certain groups that shall not be named. She can't possibly be expected to match your Baron's personal household colors, or know if the red in someone's charge is more crimson or more tomato-y. However, if you tell them it's for a living history outfit, they will understand since they sort of specialize in Rev War and Civil war fabrics. They also understand the difference between vermillion red and madder red, and what a non-aniline color is.

Hope that helps-

Gwen

(I wrote this late last night / early this morning. My response is not AIMED at any one person or group. Noone should infer that they are being targeted. Noone's past, present, or future conduct is being questioned. I was making very general remarks and suggestions here.)

[This message has been edited by Ginevra (edited 03-15-2001).]


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J.K. Vernier
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posted 03-15-2001 12:54 PM     Profile for J.K. Vernier   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Another note about worsted wool - in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion, she remarks that one of the materials of one of the Sture pluderhosen (c.1567) is a very hard-spun worsted wool, uncrushable and springy (it is the fabric used for the poofy parts of the pluderhosen, which are very poofy indeed). She says that she suspected this might be a later replacement fabric since she was only familiar with this type of material from 18th century survivals, but she was convinced by the stitching that it was original to the garment. She proposes that this was the cloth referred to as Camlet, which was suitable for hard-wearing, water-resistant wear. So here we see, in the 16th century at least, a worsted wool being exploited to its utmost.

JV


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Dave Key
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posted 03-16-2001 05:07 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Alasdair
Just to add a bit more to what has already been said ...
Worsteds were a very common C15th cloth. In England the East Anglian counties of Norfolk and Suffolk being the most famous for the cloth.
Worsted uses a long staple wool and was typically dyed in the yarn rather the cloth ... making it suitable for patterened cloths (medley and rays). Something added to by the weave (twill) and lack of a raised nap ... worsteds being smoothed.

Looking at some of my old notes ... in 1394 Norfolk was making Single. Double and half double Worsteds ... the variety being in the weight (heavier = more expensive) and quality rather the size.
The widths I have vary between 18" and 45" most would probably have been at strait widths by the mnid-C15th ... i.e. 36"

In the C15th Norwich regulated much of the Worsted industry with Camlet (or Chamlet) being the finest grade ... but also including Bays and Says (fine grade worsteds but, apparantly, different to cloths of th same name in the c16th ... a general note of caution ... the same name does not necessarily mean the same cloth betwen the c15th and today).

The following are a few extras which ref the use of worsted ... you may be surprised by at least one ... what is worth noting is that Worsted (like Fustian) can mean both the cloth and a type of bedding


John Paston to Margaret Paston, 20th Spet 1465
To my cosyn Margret Paston.

Myn owne dere souereyn lady, I recomaund me to yow and thank yow of the gret chere žat ye mad me here, to my gret cost and charge and labour. Nomore at this tyme but that I pray yow ye woll send me hedir ij elne of worsted for doblettes to happe me this cold wynter, and that ye inquere where William Paston bought his tepet of fyne worsted whech is almost like silk; and if that be moch fyner thanne žat ye shuld bye me after vij or viij s., thanne bye [[m]]e a quarter and the nayle therof for colers, thow it be derrer thanne the tother, for I wold make my doblet all worsted for worship of Norffolk rather thanne like Gonnores doblet.


The Wardrobe Accounts of Edward IV: Part XXIX
For the Office of the Beddes within the Moost Honorable Household of Oure Saide Souverain Lorde the Kynge, Receyved by the Handes off Piers Wraton Yoman off the Same Office off the Beddes.

"Delivered unto Rauff Dowell' unto the Erber for the logeing of the ambassiatours of Bourgoingne iij peces of rede worsted of the moost assise, wherof was made iiij costers and iij counterpointes for iij beddes in iij chambres there; and also delivered unto the same Rauff for the same logeing vj peces rede worsted of the myddelle assise, wherof was made iij newe testours to iij celours that were boght of William Shukburgh and delivered to the same Rauff, and there were made also of the saide vj peces of rede worsted of the myddelle assise ix cutyns to iij beddes in the saide iij chambres and costers for ij of the saide iij chambres; and the saide iij old testours that were taken from the saide elours were made into iij cupbordclothes, alle whiche stuff of worstedes remaigne stil there, for the logeing now of M{r}. John Wode nowe undretresorer of England, by vertue of a warrant undre the Kinges signet and signe manuelle bering date the xxiiij day of Juylle, in the xx{ti} yere of the moost noble reigne of oure said Souverain Lorde the King,"

How a man shall be armed
"He shall have a pair of hose of worsted cloth, and a pair of short pads of blanket to put about his knees to prevent chafing of his leg harness"


Household accounts of Sir John Howard 1482
Chpt 38
x. day of April
John Hongford.
Paid to Willm Gooner, John Hongford man, for a piece wusted iij. yerdes deppe, for stremers and standartes xvj.s viij.d

Hope it's of use/interest.
Cheers
Dave


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-16-2001 12:18 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks so much to everyone for all of the input. My personal knowledge on the subject of wool was limited to tartan. (which, of course, are worsted). As a long time kilt maker (8 years now), I am well versed in wool weights, loom width, etc. Now I know a little more about the history. :-)
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Dave Key
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posted 03-23-2001 04:55 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If you are really interested I may be able to post a copy of the actual Regulations on the manufacture of Worsteds during the reign of Edward IV??
Cheers
Dave

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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-23-2001 11:16 AM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
That sound great, Dave. Just don't go through too much trouble. I've had my questions answered, but am always curious.
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Gwen
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posted 03-23-2001 11:34 AM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Dave-

I'd be interested! Please post the info in its own thread so its easy to access.

Thanks!!

Gwen


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 03-31-2001 02:46 AM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've been doing some more research into cashmere. It seems that these goats were also quite prevalent in China, and that their wool has been woven for quite some time (still trying to find an exact date). If silks were traded from the East, possibly this fine 'wool' was too? I'm still trying to find out.


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Bob Hurley
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posted 04-01-2001 02:51 PM     Profile for Bob Hurley     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Key:

How a man shall be armed
"He shall have a pair of hose of worsted cloth, and a pair of short pads of blanket to put about his knees to prevent chafing of his leg harness"

Dave

Ah, this changes in my mind the interpretation of "bulwarks" I've seen or heard. This says short pads, rather than the long strips. Sounds like woolen knee pads to me.

Are there other resources that would support the long strips of wool idea over this?


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Dave Key
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posted 04-23-2001 12:46 PM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ginevra:
Dave-

I'd be interested! Please post the info in its own thread so its easy to access.

Thanks!!

Gwen



It's in "Worsted Regulations 1441-2"

Cheers
Dave


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