Certainly for high volume shafts (10,000 shafts for a shipment), no finish would be expected. And for fletching glues, the use of egg white or preferably hide glue would have been used both on the feather and on the thread (silk or perhaps linen) wrapping. And a thin coat of hot wax over the dried string between the feathers to protect the glue from moisture.

However, on personal or hunting arrows (which might be used again), we might want to protect them. Besides today's modern finishes, tung oil is popular but tends to leave too glossy a finish.

Has anyone experiemented with anything else (on arrow shafts) such as linseed oil?

What are living historians using as a finish on arrow shafts (if anything) and what glues are suitable for gluing fletching and points to shafts?

What became of the boiled linseed oil experiment?

I've used modern finishes and adhesives to great success in the past, but I'd like a more authentic alternative.

Thanks in advance,
Ron

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1) War arrows were mass produced. Quantity not quality. That meant rough arrow points, no finish, and quick fletching. If an order for 50,000 shafts came in to be done in a couple of months...

2) Hunting arrows I would consider different. They were fancier. More decorative perhaps at least for the higher nobility. But the technology doesn't change.

3) Ok. Finishes. I made a choice. The shafts I made to be used at the Higgins are handled regularly. Even shot a couple of times. To cut down on finger oil marking and to hide wood imperfections, I used a tung oil. Only because it seals the wood fairly well, doesn't add much weight, and somewhat hardens. The problem with describing oils is that they aren't what you think they are. Tung oil can be mixtures of 4 types. True tung oil comes from nuts from China so it isn't exactly period for western europe. Boiled Linseed Oil can do the same. But from a historical perspective, boiled linseed oil has additives that just didn't exist. Boiled linseed oil is linseed oil that has driers added to make it cure faster. Specifically salts of cobalt, manganese, zinc or, traditionally, it was usually lead salts. (bad....)

Now, if you are asking what I have done so far, here is what I do.

For our big bow (104lb yew selfbow),
I use an ash shaft of about 1/2 inch diameter. I have inserted a horn pane sliver fit tight parallel to the grain. And glued in with a dab of hide glue because hide glue is more compatible with the horn. Then, once dried, I cut the nock perpendicular to the grain of the shaft.

Then, for fletchings, I have been using wild Canadian Goose feathers. (Collected from the ground!) This is as close as I've been able to find here in the US to simulate european geese. I have spot glued the fletching (mostly to make fletching easier). I used hide glue as I had it already made. However, traditionally, egg white would be your fletching glue. And it dries faster than hide glue. Although it is not as water resistant.

Then, the fletchings are spiral wrapped with either linen or silk thread. Up to the front of the fletchings, I've tung oiled the shaft. Again, mostly to protect it from repeated handling. And I've applied a blue/green wax between the fletchings covering the thread. (Really thin coat here.) Why wax? Because Chef came up with a Charles the Bold 1474 reference that described that the best arrows had a blue-green wax applied to protect the fletchings from moisture. After doing this, I can see why. It seals the linen thread so it does not stretch or move. And this way the thread wrapping actually puts pressure on the fletchings and holds them into place. Unfortunately so far, we haven't been able to determine what was in the wax to make it blue-green. But my guess was something to make it cure harder.

I continue the thread wrapping so that it reinforces where the horn nock insert starts (to prevent flexing and splitting).

As to the points, I use custom iron points made in England. You can get custom lower grade points (which I'm currently using). Or really spend and have the real ones from real wrought iron made by Hector Cole. You are talking $30 or more a head at this point.

As to the shafts themselves.

What is period?

Heavy arrows would have been more likely from european ash.

Also northern pine would have been used.
For lighter arrows to fly further (think bodkin point at max range), poplar was an option and noted. Particularly from Italy.

Cedar is not a proper material. (Common or even choice now, but it wasn't period at least in any reference I have accessed.)

I use ash for my big arrows. Lodgepole pine for my target and lower poundage shafts.

Now if you really want to get detail oriented, you can make your own shafts with an arrow plane or by traditional shaft shaving methods. I admittedly haven't had the time to go this far, yet. So I have bought my pine shafting commercially usually from 3 Rivers Archery.

Again, still learning and always will be.

FvH

I recently discovered Canadian goose feathers and I like them a lot. I bought my first batch. I knew that I could find the feathers in early-mid June in my area (Michigan) but I wanted to finish the arrows in January. But, I got smart and sent the kids off to find goose feathers at the local park by offering 10 cents per usuable feather. I have a stash to last a little while, and they're now much more motivated for next year :-)

I have linseed oil to spare & may use that. I just hate to make arrows that may warp. For your personal shafts, do you leave them bare? Do you have problems with them warping? I would expect ash to be problematic. Do you use straight (parallel) shafts or tapered ones?

I had been tying my fletching with artificial sinew, but I was considering going to either real sinew or silk thread. I do 17th century Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and they used equipment similar to or identical to Ottoman Turkish stuff (hence the silk).

I have used walnut slivers to reinforce the nocks, but I'm planning to try horn or wood wedge nocks next.

Ron

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Jachim:
I have linseed oil to spare & may use that. I just hate to make arrows that may warp. For your personal shafts, do you leave them bare? Do you have problems with them warping? I would expect ash to be problematic. Do you use straight (parallel) shafts or tapered ones?

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Well, my answer to what finish I use is, "it depends". I have or am in the process of remaking 3 different sets of shafts.

1)SCA arrows. Yes, I USED to be much more active in SCA archery. Yes, I gave up my modern fiberglass recurve (well, I didn't give it up, just put it away) and switched to a 35 year old wood laminate recurve. For these arrows, I used cedar, made a custom antique looking stain (aged brown/black) which is not a smooth even coloring, then used modern turkey feathers with a plastic, yes, plastic nock. I used to shoot these custom shafts (3 spine weights) regularly and for repeated outdoor use, they were fine.

2) The new proper arrows not yet made. I just received a week ago my replacedment yew longbow from Jay St. Charles. I originally bought one last Sept and withing 50 shots, it cracked. Fortunately, I had not committed to making arrows yet and was using my SCA arrows. 9 plus months of screaming later, I have a wonderful (provided it doesn't explode like the first one) 76 inch custom english yew selfbow. But I haven't checked the spine/draw weight yet.

For this bow, I will be making shafts out of pine (heavier) with the full goose feathers, wrap, wax, etc. As to oiling them, I haven't decided. Oiling will make them easier to pull out for target shooting. (Also make them sink in more too.) But it will keep the wood from staining due to water and it will protect them a little from chips, rubs and scratches. I will be doing 2 batches of almost matched arrows. A dozen (to start) will be bodkin and a few mixed hunting iron heads. Another 2 dozen (to start) will be customized modern heads (with semi bodkin points) to be used as training and SCA arrows with this longbow. Also so that the range doesn't yell at me for cutting up the wall with piercing bodkin points. (Which are a real bugger to get out of the wall if you miss and hit a 2x4 wood framing stud behind the foam.)

For the war bow, I have another 15 shafts almost done. They have been fully horn nocked and cut. They are ready for fletching but very doubtfully for Michaelmaß this year. Because I used more modern dowel shafting, I intend to tung oil them all to make them look a little more aged and to hide the modern shafting. Right now, these are straight shafts. I do have access to a taper plane and the next experiment will probably be tapered.

hope that helps.

daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by LHF:
verdi gris gives the wax that blue green colour.

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Funny you mention this. Originally I had mused that some natural additive might have been added to the wax. But now that you point this out, I'm wondering about the solubility in wax this might have. And
the next question would be as to whether there is evidence that cupric sulfate, (the name escapes me too as my relavent physics and chemistry classes were years ago), was available in some form in the 15thC. Either under this or another name. And why it would have been available.

We think the source material is in a french book that Chef has not been able to get. He bought it and the french postal system lost it in transit to the US.

If you find more about this, please post even if it deviates from the topic a little. If true, I would like to learn the original/correct method or formula. Not some antique finish replicating it. It might answer some things.

now lets talk about solubility... very soluble in polar solvents, i.e. water. as far as the non-polar, i.e. fats, i'll ask one of my poffs about more details to its distribution in non-polar solvents since heat would be a factor.

hope this helps.

daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by LHF:
now lets talk about solubility...

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Sorry. Poor choice of words. Perhaps compatibility and stability with wax and what I would consider a dispersion consistency. While an interesting experiment in itself, I would be concerned of the wax "bleeding" out of the substance. Gunking up my bow and contaminating my hands.

It goes along with my opinion that lead poisoning was period. But it's one part of living history that I'll just have to pass on in this lifetime!

In this instance, and with the public occassionally handling my arrows, I think I would continue the colored wax method for field and demonstration use. But I would look to further researching and making such a historical set for museum display or such presentation. Please let us know what you further find. I think this is great! Now if Chef/Jenn can find another copy of the french source to see if the secret additive is mentioned.

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cupric sulfate, which is a salt, can also be used to make cupric acetate when combined with vinegar. i would have to look into its presence in antiquity, etc. the resulting percipitate, whether using cupric sulfate or copper metal, would then have to be seperated from the vinegar by whatever means; most easily by evaporating the vinegar out leaving only the solid percipitate. this is then ground into powder and added to the molten "wax" producing a mixture in suspension and creating the green colour.

if you forgive me i'll have to post the secondary sources that state the use of the verdigris additive at a later time. but if Bob or Jenn can find the primary source for it, please do so.

thanks,

daniel

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Db

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The reference can be found in purchase orders from the comptroler of the ducal artillery, end of Philip the Goods reign I believe - the information was published in Gardiner'e 'Artillery of the dukes of Burgundy' - it mentions the green wax specifically, and my theory is this is for arrows being stockpiled, to prevent the glue from being damaged - but its a theory. The practise however, is recorded.

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Either protect the thread from stretching and particularly slipping.

And/or protect the glue from moisture. Egg white is more problematic than hide glue. (And egg white much cheaper and abundant.) But this is actually irrelevent because a properly bound fletching cannot move due to equal pressure inward from the thread. You do NOT wax the feathers. Just in between to the base/spine of the feather.

I'm not saying this is historic evidence. But a logical conclusion CAN be determined here. We may not know what exactly the green wax was, but it was clearly to protect the wrapping. And having shot arrows having this process done, it does work and keeps the wrapping more stable. And reuseable.

As to the poplar. It was well documented that by the 16thC, most of the bow staves and shafting was being imported via the import tax system. (Bring in this ship and pay in part with a crate of staves.) Poplar produces a very light shaft. It travels further and works well with bodkin points of softening the enemy at distance. In the southern countries, poplar I feel was much more prevalent. In the north, pine arrow shafting was available. Which was better for heavier arrows for hunting and attacking armour. (Allowing a heavier broadhead.)

Poplar was available in greater quantity in Italy and Spain. Not, generally, the northern states. Much of the yew for staves came from northern Italy or Spain because England had cleaned it's supplies out.

The verdigris discussion above is every interesting. Turkish tents show an outer layer of greenish fabric that could very well have been dyed using it. The waterproofing and insect repellency would be good reasons to do this to outer tent fabric. The inner layer of fabric would contain all kinds of fancy designs.

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From talking with a few others, the opinion is split on whether just a couple of spot dabs might have been applied (to align the feather before wrapping), or egg white (or something else) was applied the full length of the feather spine.

I know of one in the UK who is skilled and uses no "glue" at all and just wraps the fletching with silk thread.

However, getting back to the war arrow production process, one contemplates the assembly line concept for an order of say 60,000 arrows. (And you have different people shaving shafts and then fletchers.)
I would like anything that would speed up the fletching would be desireable. And, having tried nothing, egg white and hide glue, a spot of straight egg white seems to make things go the quickest for me.

there's a couple of other references in (Hardy's?) book. it has a write up on the marry rose arrows which is of interest. that i'll dig up after i get back from Atlanta.

daniel

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I am expecting my Yew Bow from Jay St. Charles sometime this fall. I got in 55-60# weight so I can actually draw it. I'm impressed with the idea of your 100#+ war bow... do you actually shoot with it?

As for fletching feathers... I have some "domestic gray goose" (actually white) feathers I picked up in Englad a couple summers ago. I was under the impression that these feathers are what were predominantly used on livery arrows. Once cut, they seem virtually identical to domestic turkey feathers. Any opinion on using turkey feathers?

Also to all, what is your opinion of helical versus straight fletching? I always thought that straight fletching was used in-period, but I read recently that the Mary Rose arrows showed signs of helical flectching. Any thoughts, sources?

Strongbow

The big bow is nothing short of a monster and, in retrospect after much experimentation, could have been refined better and should have been longer in length. It also has a natural twist that's a little weird but it's been safe so far. The hemp string is shot though with fibres breaking so it's time to source a new one.

To shoot the monster, it actually releases cleanly, and even at half draw, it will blow through 5 inches of closed cell archery range wall foam with no effort. But it's more of a looker. I'll bring both to PA (barring last minute emergencies) and try and photograph them.

As to fletchings, I used natural grey goose which has all the natural oils still on them. It's a different look.

As to the type of twist, this is anybody's guess as nothing has survived. But... from period paintings and sketches, and some arrow physics, we can try make an educated guess.

Straight: All the paintings depict straight fletches. Fletchings keep the shaft from twisting and, by causing slight amounts of drag, keep it straight. But it can still wobble some. You lose the least amount of speed this way. Also, if you have a bomb of an arrow head like a swallow tail broad head, it won't twist easily in flight so adding a helical would just be counter.

Helical: This is a modern invention. The advantage is spin. Spin works to stabilize the arrow in flight but it slows down more. The problem or challenge I see is how do you fletch 10,000 shafts effectively with this time consuming process? I'm not saying they didn't as I have no proof but I've yet to see indication that this was a used technique.

There's one option you haven't mentioned. That's called the offset fletch. Essentially, take a straight fletch but offset the alignment by a few degrees (say 5?). You still keep the fletch straight. This could give you a little more stability without compromising the look. Again, historically, this is all conjecture.

Experimentally, I basically straight fletched 3 prototype arrows for the big bow. They fly fine. (The bodkin and big swallow tail broad head in particular.) But they really don't spin. The just hang in flight like a missle. What goes up, hangs for a few seconds, then starts to drop. And then craters! I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end...

Let us know how long it take to get your bow.
Just curious...

If by helical you mean fletching in a spiral, this is not a modern invention. During the 15th century we find references to 'vitreons', which are crossbow bolts that are fletched in this fashion, to give greater accuracy (and the hope was to increase the effect of impact). They were expensive, and tended to be restricted to sniping in siege work, and ther is no mention of any similar fletching for arrows for warbows on this order.

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The reference I saw was for an SCA fletcher making arrows for an A&S competition. He referenced "helical" fletching evidence from the Mary Rose arrows. I don't know if he meant genuine helical fletching or offset fletching. On a polus note, I'm scheduled to go to Portsmouth for a business trip next month. I plan on visiting the Mary Rose museum and hopefully I'll get a chance to find out more about the arrows.

I'll be sure to let you know about my Jay St. Charles bow when I get it. Part of me wanted to get a genuine WAR bow, but I just couldn't justify getting a bow I couldn't shoot . What the heck, at least Yew looks more accurate than the other woods commonly used for modern bow reproductions.

See ya later.

A friend of mine told me that the verdigris was most probably used against mold and possibly even insect attacks; I know that moths like the feathers on my arrows.

One old Swedish trick to hold moss of the roof, is to attach a copper wire at the top of the roof and get a small dose of copper running down the tiles with the rain water.

/Micke D

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
If by helical you mean fletching in a spiral...[/B]

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This would be offset fletching. Helical is where the actual feather is twisted and curved around the shaft. This would interfere with the bolt actually as it would rub the frame of the crossbow. It would be an utter pain in the X to attempt to thread wrap a helical let alone to actually get it to stay on the arrow shaft long enough. Maybe for a special hunting set but straight and offset are set straight in their natural position. Helical requires a processed feather with a thinned spine otherwise you cannot twist it. Or it would have to be notched along the spine to allow it to twist.