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Author Topic: 15th Century Embroidery?!?
Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 02-07-2001 02:23 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK, I'm the next new guy with lots and lots of questions (I know, add me to the list). Previously I have done 16th century German and some 10th century Viking. Doing the viking stuff I had to learn to embroider--no one around to teach me tablet weaving. I am just starting to put a kit together--starting of course with clothing. I am assuming (there's that word again), that the decoration I've seen on some doublets is embroidery and not just a jacquard material. If so, I need some info on the stitches used, floss material, and finally, I'm still looking for something that would approximate silver and/or gold thread--and still be acceptable for LH. I have had several people suggest using ecclisiastical embroidery floss, but is that acceptable and where can I find it (no one where I am has it, and all of the local craft stores think I'm nuts already). Please, please, please HELP. Also, I know velvet came into being in the 15th c., is there anyone who manufactures something extremely close? And, last but certainly not least, for the time being I am stuck in FL, and need to find a good supplier for wool material. Anyone have a list?
Thanks.

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AnnaRidley
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posted 02-07-2001 05:54 PM     Profile for AnnaRidley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm not sure what you are looking for, it might help if you could post a picture of the decorations you are talking about.

The extant 15th c. embroidery that I know about is mostly German and in the V&A museum. The gentleman who produced the following site has spent quite a bit of time studying these pieces and charting the patterns. http://home.flash.net/~wymarc/

The following is a good article on the differences in metal threads: http://www.needlearts.com/articles/article_10/article_10.html

Try the following links for thread sources: http://crossstitch.about.com/hobbies/crossstitch/cs/threadsfibers/index.htm http://www.5rivers.org/estore/

Mitake.


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hauptfrau
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posted 02-07-2001 07:26 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
15th C. velvet: I looked for silk velvet (the stuff you want) for Craig Nadler 2 months ago. I was told by my fabric suppliers that silk velvet is being produced in China, is hideously expensive ($40 py WHOLESALE, which means it would cost at least $200 py retail) and can be produced by special order only. Special order minimum is 10,000 yards.

As for wool, try Timeless Textiles. Do a web search, as they have a website but I don't have the address to hand.

Gwen


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 02-07-2001 08:42 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks for the info on the velvet, no I don't need 10,000 yards at the moment (I mean, I know a houppelande for me takes a lot of yardage, but even King Kong isn't that big). As for the pictures of the work, I will have to dig them out, get my new computer set up and then hook up the new scanner...just as soon as I get my bathroom remodelled (YUCK!). So, does anyone know any sources for metal thread (something more cost effective than using REAL silver)? Anyhow, thanks for the heads up on the wool. I have found a good source for linen (AND CHEAP) www.fabric-store.com I've bought from them before, and service is a little slow (only because the fabric comes from the Ukraine). I recently bought some beautiful blue and natural linen herringbone weave (7 oz. range) for $3/yd. If anyone has a chance to get over there, they have some very nice looking cotton jacquard (paisley and vine pattern). I know cotton was available, and jacquard material is proper for 15th c. could anyone tell me if this stuff is OK? Thanks again, and I will post those pictures asap. PS- I am still looking for a good hose pattern?

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Semper ubi sub ubi


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hauptfrau
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posted 02-07-2001 09:07 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
You can get just about every kind of embroidery thing known to man from Joady Gorelick at Hedgehog Handworks- http://www.hedgehoghandworks.com/

I tried to look at your link but it wouldn't load. Would you recheck the address please?

Thanks-

Gwen


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Fire Stryker
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posted 02-07-2001 09:20 PM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Alasdair,

is the url: www.thefabricstore.com ? I tried variations on the link given and this is the only one that yielded a result.

Jenn


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 02-08-2001 01:07 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Sorry about the link, it was www.fabrics-store.com didn't mean to confuse everyone. I was just there a minute ago, but use netscape or aol, it seems to lock up my ie browser. Chef already told me that the cotton jacqurd was out, but they are still a great place for linen and cotton cloth. Check out their sale are for some really good prices. Heavier linens usually go for $3 to $5 a yard with them, and the colors are great. I still haven't checked out the link for embroidery stuff, am going there next. Anyone have any tips on the metallic stuff, or should I just avoid it all together? Thanks for the help, and if I come across anything else, I'll pass it on.
Alasdair

P.S.-- Being scottish, and making kilts, I found a great place if anyone ever needs tartans Fraser and Kirkbright their URL is http://westcoastwoollenmills.com they weave tartan in Canada from Australian wool. Current price is $36/Canandian per yard with only a 5yd minimum (10.5 oz / 58"-60"). The last stuff I ordered from Scotland cost $40+/yd.(US without VAT)

[This message has been edited by Alasdair (edited 02-08-2001).]


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 02-08-2001 02:05 PM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
WOW! Thanks for the great links. Now I just have one question to ask: would silver embroidery be above the station of a knight/man-at-arms? I know that embroidery was common to most stations (all but slaves in viking culture), but am not sure of the silver/gold.
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hauptfrau
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posted 02-08-2001 03:10 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
would silver embroidery be above the station of a knight/man-at-arms?

Definitely above the station of a man-at-arms, possibly above that of a knight. You'd have embroidered livery, and maybe your sweetie would do some embroidery (or the appropriate type) on your shirt, but definitely not more than that.

Gwen


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Seigneur de Leon
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posted 02-08-2001 09:32 PM     Profile for Seigneur de Leon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
What about sources for flax linen? Hamilton Dry Goods is out.

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VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO


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hauptfrau
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posted 02-08-2001 10:23 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Do you mean flax linen for embroidery? Did you try Hedgehog?

I think livery badges should be done with silk- if the guy has enough money to pay your wages, he's going to have enough to pay for good embroidery materials.

Embroidery on shirts in the 15th C. really is more of a decorative stitch around the seams than full blown flowers and whatnot. If I can think of the painting that shows this in good detail I'll post it. Christ is on the cross and has his shirt tied around his hips instead of a loincloth. You can see very clearly that all the seams are faggotted*.

Gwen

*Faggotting is an embroidery technique where the edges of 2 pieces of fabric are clean finished and joined with an open stitch that looks much like a ladder.


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 02-09-2001 11:28 AM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It must be decorative stitching (in a contrasting color) that I was seeing. All of the work looks to be at a seam. The only very clear illustrations I have seen, so far, are of clothing of a fairly plain nature--just nice fabric.
While I have your attention, I have another question: What about plaid materials (yarn dyed fabrics) in the 15th c.? I know that there were a couple of viking finds with wool "plaid" pants. I would assume that the same could be and probably was done with linen. I have a great looking pair of viking trewes made of a bleached, natural, and blue linen...and consequently have some leftover material. I would consider making a shirt and some braies with them? Or, would make an interesting doublet lining. Let me know your ideas, thoughts, suggestions, criticisms. Thanks
Alasdair

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hauptfrau
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posted 02-09-2001 01:45 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"I have ...bleached, natural, and blue linen...and consequently have some leftover material. I would consider making a shirt and some braies with them? Or, would make an interesting doublet lining. Let me know your ideas, thoughts, suggestions, criticisms."

Sounds like great fabric.

I can't recommend making smallclothing out if it, as to the very best of my knowledge all smallclothes are plain white. If the blue in your linen fabric was dyed with a natural dyestuff (indigo or woad), and you washed it frequently and put it out in the sun to dry, the "natural" color would bleach to white and sooner or later so would the blue. I think this is one reason all smallclothes are white.

I don't know of any patterned *linings*, usually the records say fabrics provided for lining are a cheap black or grey, and the grey can be interpreted as "natural" or dyed grey. (That's why I use "natural" linen for all of my garment linings, BTW). I can't rule it out entirely, but mostly the trend is to show off a fabric that takes more work to produce, not hide it on the inside of a garment.

It it's a small pattern, I'd cautiously recommend making a doublet out of it, as we certainly can document woven patterns in use in extant garments. IMHO, I don't think there are enough "medley" cloths being used for period garments. Based on the archaeological record, mixed color cloths account for the lion's share of finds. I therefore deduce that they were used regularly, and would like to see reenactors use them more.

Of course this last bit is my own personal opinion.

Gwen


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Reinhard von Lowenhaupt
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posted 02-10-2001 01:33 AM     Profile for Reinhard von Lowenhaupt   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gwen, thanks for the input. Yes, the pattern is relatively small, (especially on me, I'm 6'2" 300#+), the other thing I had considered was lining a coat/overgown with it...perhaps a nice red wool, hmmmm....
Since you seem to be the person in the know, I have yet one more question. The link I listed earlier www.fabrics-store.com has a linen cotton blend for sale at a cheap, cheap, cheap price ($2 something/yard). If you have a chance to look at it, is it anything similar to fustian? (Chef de Chambre just told me about this, and I haven't seen any of this cloth myself). If so, I'm buying some asap.

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hauptfrau
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posted 02-10-2001 12:46 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Since a definition of fustian is off track for this thread and will likely engender further discussion, I'm going to answer under a new thread: Fustian vs. cotton/linen blends
http://www.wolfeargent.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000082.html

Gwen


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