Other examples: Many of the Herjolfsnes dresses had multiple seams that run the length of the garment i.e. shoulder to hem. The G63 is one example, with several numbers on either side of it. However, the fit is completely different, that being an "A" shaped garment.

G38 & G39 have seams that start at the shoulder and run to the hem, but the upper seam becomes the armhole before it meets the body and the edge of another piece and continues to the hem. The seam does not run over the middle of the breast like in the Fouquet painting, but the G63 seam would.

All of the Herjolfsness gowns are about 100 years earlier than your painting, so the fit is much different. I still think the Fouquet is very stylized, and would love to know that that style gown would look like on a real body.

I'll have to check my book when I get to the shop and see about the other Herjolfsness dresses and their numbers, and to see if any of them have "princess" seams.

quote:

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Originally posted by hauptfrau:
Yup, that's a princess seam all right. And looking at that painting for the 400th time, I think I finally understand what's going on with the lacing!!!
Gwen

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I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by princess seam. The Herjolfsnes dresses vary quite a bit in fit and drape than what I associate with princess seam dresses (i.e. modern patterns). I find the cutting layout and amount of wasted fabric to also be substantially different.

I mention this mostly because I've seen two women standing next to each other one in a Herjolfsnes 38 and one in a long version of the modern pattern. I was stuck by how both were quite flattering to the female figure but had very different asthetics. I tend to encourage people away from just making the modern pattern longer mostly because I think the medieval dress patterns to have a look to them that is just different than what you get with modern patterns.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that while there is plenty of evidence for armholes that are formed from 4+ pieces a la modern princess seaming, the shape of the pieces, the drape of the resulting garment, and the wasteful layout of fabric don't jive with my view of the way medieval dresses went together. Gwen, I know you don't just modify modern patterns to make them longer, I'm just frustrated with the people I deal with who don't seem to want to move beyond that.

I also checked Queen Margareta's golden gown and that garment is made of 4 pieces with no "princess" seams, just underarm seams 1 center front and one center back.

It should be noted that these are all Scandinavian garments and the design sense is somewhat particular to that region. I'll keep looking to see if I can find anything else.

As for the lacing, let's see if I can do this ASCII

Spiral lacing looks like this:
/
/
/
/
/
but the lacing in Fouquet looks like this
>
>
>
>

So instead of going left 1 to right 2, left 2 to right 3, it's more like left 1 to right 1, (up one to) right 2 to left 2 (up one to) left 3 to right 3.

Does that make any sense at all??

now, I'm SO not a costumer, but as I understood it, modern princess seams have the seam running from the hem up, but it takes a left turn at 90o at the SIDE Of the breast.

the medieval seams go up and either go straight or turn across the TOP of the breast. Jean Fouquets virgin I would have a hard time accepting her seams as indicitive as I find it VERY unlikely that the models body is really shaped like that (even if she WAS the kings mistress....). but again, I'm just a cook.

By the way...I personally love the fit of a dress taht has the totally vertical seams (a la 10gore dress). Works great on cylindrical bodies.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by princess seam.
Technically, a princess seam is one that falls over or near the middle of the breast. It can start in the shoulder seam or the armhole seam, as AM states. I don’t think the Herjolfsnes gowns qualify as “princess” because the seam isn’t in the middle of the breast.

The Herjolfsnes dresses vary quite a bit in fit and drape than what I associate with princess seam dresses (i.e. modern patterns).
Right. The Herjolfsnes gowns are flat in front and the gores under the arm turn the gown into a “box” which gives the gown depth and a full skirt over the hips but little shape around the bust. “Princess” seaming moves the seam over the breast and allows for shaping around the bust and for more fullness over the leg.

I think the medieval dress patterns to have a look to them that is just different than what you get with modern patterns.
I agree completely. Medieval gowns tend to be flat where modern gowns are curvy, and the skirts kick in different places than modern skirts.

I'm just frustrated with the people I deal with who don't seem to want to move beyond that.
Welcome to my world! I deal with this issue all the time with my business. For some of my thoughts on the subject, see my post on the “Medieval Aesthetic” http://www.darkharvest.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000043.html

Gwen

What a cool site! Thanks for posting it. I can see I'm going to be spending a lot of time poking around there. I have a good amount of this information already, but it isn't all in one spot. This is great!

I like his comment: In all fairness, however, I am sometimes a bit sensitive to gratuitous criticism, and am likely to respond negatively. In other words, if you think it's trash, and you could do better on your worst day -- why haven't you? A guy after my own heart

At the risk of getting seriously derailed here, who is "I. Marc Carlson" and why does he spend so much time doing this for free? What a guy!!

He's also a great resource for shoe info. He does do some cheats but the real info is there too.