I'm about attempt the construction of some thigh-high riding boots (as seen in Rene d'Anjou's Treatise and like the ones that Black Swan sells). Can anyone give me pointers on construction techniques, and perhaps some ideas to help me avoid problems

I'm about to order some 1/8 inch thick Deer leather which looks rather supple. Would this be appropriate for what I'm about to attempt? Also, what type/thickness of leather should I use for the soles?

Hauptfrau, is it true that you are from Black Swan? If so, you might be one to whom I should listen. Beautiful work, by the way!

Yes, I'm responsible for Black Swan Designs. Thank you for the compliment. As far as listening to me, well, I'm human too, I'm certainly not infallible and all-knowing....

Hauptmann is my husband Jeff Hedgecock of Historic Arms and Armour.

Together we own and run the Swan & Lion Sutlery.

Welcome to FireStryker!

Patience - Jeff J. has made a very nice pair, but I think he is away this weekend. I'm sure he will be able to give you some answers when he sees the thread.

You will fine a great big pile of information. Including construction techniques, advice for choosing leathers (both for your uppers and soles), "making" thread and code, some pictures, making lasts, and most importanty, an extensive bibliography!

I would speculate that constructing such a pair of boots would be much like a pair of ankle boots only much taller. You'll basically be building a turnshoe, so you'll need lasts. The one piece of advice I do have to impart is GET GOOD LASTS. Make them yourself, (this is quite possibly the most frustrating process in the world the first time you try it)or find someone to do it for you. I've spent the better part of a year mucking about with "quick and easy" methods of last making involving things like duct-tape, socks, foam, old running shoes, or whatever with only limited success. The one thing that I learned was that the time effort and money that I spent on these miserable things would have made me at least two sets of GOOD lasts. So for what it's worth, that's my advice. (not very good is it? )

Good luck to you, let us know how they turn out.

Oh yes, one other thing. On the aformentioned website you will find "exploded" pictures of some shoes. That is to say, drawings of the pieces of the shoe laid out as if you had taken the shoe apart. DO NOT USE THESE FOR PATTERNS They are good to look at for an idea, but keep in mind that the leather has been soaked and stretched and all maner of things have been done to it. If you copy one of these exactly and try to make a shoe or boot, strange things will happen.....trust me.

I used a pattern I modified from the Thigh-high (3 buckles) on the Carlson site.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOES/SHOE27.HTM

For upper material, I used Elk, as it is a sub-species of the red deer native to the UK. Also, Elk hide is thicker and tougher than regular white-tail deerhide, while still stretchy and supple. Just the properties needed for thigh-boots. For soles, I used thick commercial sole leather to give them a longer life and allow me to walk over rocks. Stitching is waxed linen.

The mods I made to his pattern were to shape the portion of the uppers that sews to the welts to conform more closely to the shape of the foot, rather than straight, as he depicts it. The thigh portion fits tight to the thigh. With the stretchy elk, I buckle them quite tight across the calf & knee and can still bend my legs.

I used turn-welt construction, without lasts, and Wedged heels, what Carlson calls "Medieval raised Heels" to give arch support.

These are the first set of medieval footwear I've worn that don't leave me with sore feet at the end of the day.

Some advice:
- practice the stitches & experiment before working on the boots. Take your time.
- for nice even switches get a stitch measuring tool - it's a little spikey wheel on a handle that you roll over the leather to leave dents where you put the stitch holes.
- make holes in the leather with an awl or drill (soles) before using the needle
- when the boots are done, liberally apply neatsfoot oil (NOT neatsfoot compound). Some advocate melting beeswax into the oil. Experiment with your leather to see what finish you like.
- carve a shallow little groove in the bottom of the soles between the stitch holes so the stitches aren't the first thing that wears off.

Any more ideas would be much appreciated. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I start pondering all the info you've given me, but this should keep me busy for at least a little while.

I'd still advise placing a small grove on the inside of the sole to take the stitching as you wear a sole out from both sides!

It's also worth noting that the effect of prolonged wear on a soft leather sole (remember they didn't have the compressed leather now used for soles) will cause it to partially collapse, resulting in what appears to be a tunnel stitched sole as the edge flattens into the inner (I wonder how much checking of the archaeologically recorded tunnel stitches are actually collapsed edge stitching?).
The practice of adding the rand (a thin strip between upper and sole) was initially for better waterproofing but is easily converted into a welt for attaching an additional sole, however I'm unsure of the dating for this and would generally consider it c16th to be on the safe side.

Again, thanks for your advice. I'll keep you folks posted as to my progress and, of course, throw some more questions your way.

a couple of comments and questions.

firstly on the rand. from my notes from "MOL: shoes and pattens" a rand was employed by mid 15th cent. it depends on what date your persona lived whether you go with the rand or not. but i do suggest using it for several reasons. the obvious is weather "proofing". you'll appreciate the extra seal it gives twixt your sole and uppers if ever you tromp through the muck. second, it facilitates the addition of a clump sole (using the rand as a welt and stitching the clump sole to it rather than to the upper), and adds some extra wear to your boots. thirdly, if you intend to wear these boots for some time, the soles will wear out before the uppers. the rand will make it easier to attach a new clump sole by just cutting away the remaining stitches on the worn sole, removing it and making it possible to fix the new sole in its stead (this is great because you don't have to mess with the construction of the upper.) just be careful that when you wear a hole into your soles that you don't wear right through into the innersole.

as far as the boots that i made, i didn't use a true last. however, if you want to use one, i don't recomend the whole duct tape plastered tennis guacamole mold. the shape is not right, plain and simple. (just my opinion, and respectfull appologies extended to all who swear by this method.) if you have the cash, get a pair of last made for you. check in your area for shoe makers, boot makers, and if there are none also try orthopedic shoe makers(i used to be one). as a last (dam* it, this pun was not intentional) resort, i have used mail-order last makers. you do have to make a plaster cast of your feet, then send them out; in a couple of weeks or so you get a pair of last in the mail.

or you can try making the last yourself. use a soft wood in order to avoid excessive carving time. or a quick poorman's option would be to get a pair of old shoe trees and use them as the front of your last affixing a segment for the heel portion (cuts down on your carving time.)

the http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOES/SHOE27.HTM site is great. i also suggest checking out http://www.thehcc.org/ it'll give you a couple of good links. do your research and ask many questions.

now for my questions: this one is directed to anyone who could answer but primarily at jeff and gwen. this past saturday i took a closer look at the boots of yours that bob has. the way that you attached your buckles, is this the same fashion that would be used to attach them to your thigh high? or would they be stiched to the outside of the leather?

another question concerns my heel cups. there has been discussion in their documention. as per "MOL: shoes and pattens" patches were known to be used to repair worn shoes; i.e. the clump sole/heel. i have found pictoral evidence of a seam in the heel portion on etchings of a slightly latter period (1490-1510) plus what appears to be a seam on the boots in Rene d'Anjou's Treatise (but is this do to the spurs?) can any one shed any light for their documentation?

The MOL books do not show heel cups, although there are several examples of heel reinforces. You might want to go back and look at the info again.

I'm not a shoe expert, but I'd like to make the blanket observation that clothing styles -and therefore one could logically assume fabrication methods- changed quickly and radically around 1480-85. If you are recreating an artifact form 1460, I do not believe it is safe to assume post-1480 construction methods apply. This is not to say that they didn't- some may well be valid. The important thing is not to ASSUME post-1480's constuction is valid as a matter of course.

I'll try to post some other thoughts on this subject later.

Gwen

o.k let me expand on my prior statement concerning heel cups in order to avoid any misunderstanding.

yes you are correct, MOL does reference an inside heel stiffener/reinforcer. no reference was made of an outside heel cup in particular; a patch of leather roughly the same shape of the inner stiffener affixed to the outside of the boot. yes, there is reference to mending patches such as the clump soles that i mentioned.

taking from my expirience as a shoe maker, i've seen some shoes wear out thin heels right into the uppers after heavy use. in order to fix this, a patch of leather is sewn to the uppers covering the worn spot. now, keep in mind that this is from a modern day practicle perspective.

so... translating the modern day practicle to the past (if this is posible) would a repair patch be used in order to fix a worn out upper? MOL indicates yes. then why not a worn out upper in the heel section. this is pure conjecture since i still have not found evidence to this in the heel cup portion prior to 1490 (which is not good since i'm trying to work my kit around 1470.) so no, i do not assume but instead ask for help in verifying documentation. i don't want to mindlessly say "sure why not."

another question/verification: leather usage. the leathers that i have come across have been mostly kid, elk, deer, limited cow on period shoes. has anyone come across mention of a split hide or suede?

Resoling seems very common and the following page states that:

"Comparatively few uppers in any of the groups seem to have been repaired (Table 15). Occasionally, additional stitch impressions suggest that a type of repair is a patch sewn in on the inside of the shoe with binding-stitch (in the manner of a heel-stiffener or lace-hole reinforcement) to cover a worn area or hole. One of the clearest examples of this is shown in Fig. 104: here, two successive patches appear to have been added to strengthen the side seam, perhaps after the shoe had split apart. Repairs of this kind seem not to have been common, however, probably because the soles will have worn through long before the uppers, rendering many shoes worthless after only a few months' use."

I feel that a "heel cup" in a modern sense, especially on the OUTSIDE of the shoe was probably NOT done. The pattern sketches in the MOL book are quite clear that heel stiffeners, not cups, were placed inside the shoe, as were other repairs/patches, with the exception of clumps, which were tunnel stitched to the worn through sole. The "heel stiffeners" were included in the stitching of the sole to the upper, indicating that they were most often installed before the sole was stitched on when the shoe was newly made.

Remember, the tradition was to not pierce the thickness of the upper, and to tunnel stitch extra layers of leather to retain the moisture resistance of the shoe.

I recommend against applying any modern techniques to medieval footwear. Stitching techniques were rather different, lasting techniques were different and construction techniques were very different.

I'm also surprised by your citation of kid, elk, and deer in medieval shoes. You also say that there was limited use of cow. Most of the references I've seen to leather of medieval shoes cite "calf skin" as the type. I believe this would be due to the lack of splitting technology/machines. Calfskin is thinner and more supple than cow hide and probably wouldn't require splitting to acheive an acceptable thickness, where skin from an older animal would be too thick to use unsplit. This indicates to me that "split" or "suede" leather was not available, most likely because it wasn't mechanically feasible. We have big machines today that take big thick hides and split them, hence the terms "top grain" and "splits".

I don't believe suede or split leather existed before the industrial revolution of the 19th century. I have not researched this specifically however.

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Cheers,

Rene does not conclusively show heel cups or reinforces on the thigh highs, either in the Livre de Tournois or in the Book of Love. Overall, Rene shows the spurs holding the fold over of the boots closed, there are no buckles in any of the pictures. I have also found no conclusive evidence anywhere for buckles on 15th century thigh high riding boots, that they existed at all is an assumption (and perhaps an incorrect one) that Gerry Embleton's research is correct and that he has access to sources I have not yet located. I have looked at dozens of Flemish paintings and some show thigh high or calf high boots, many with fold over instep, but none with buckles. Perhaps they had hooks and eyes that are not visible. The Mittelalterliches Hausbuch depicts plenty of thigh highs, but shows no visible closure fastening, in fact, most of the thigh area is turned down, obscuring most of the ankle area.

I personally use a combination of buckles and hooks and eyes on my standard thigh highs that I make for sale, but my own pair have only 4 sets of hooks and eyes, since I don't want to use buckles and can exactly position the hooks and eyes on my own legs. Doing this long distance for a client is not possible in the instep area, hence I use a buckle and strap, but a very short one. This is often hidden under the spur strap, but doesn't have to be since I use a soapstone cast pewter buckle which is historically plausible.

Generally, there is very little conclusive evidence about this type of boots, so the truth is, we have to make some assumptions.

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Cheers,

i was afraid that i would not be able to justify using exterior heel cups. unfortunately i am heavy on my heels and did wear into the uppers. not wanting to discard my boots (especially after many hours stitching and putting them together) i opted for a modern repair.

i appreciate your clarification since i was going on speculation as far as this matter.

as far as the leather usage, Jeff, your sources state the primary leather used was calf skin? no mention of kid, elk, or deer?

hmmph... i'll have to recheck my literature which is 1500 miles away right now, sorry. i'll reply to this when i get home.

about the splits, i agree with you. i don't see how it could be fashioned with 15th cent. technology. plus i don't see the advantage of a reversed upper (which to go off topic for one minute how's your knowledge of WWII? can you explain why the overseas combat shoe was designed as a reverse upper? you don't have to shine them as often???) sorry back on track. so suede, splits would be a no-no for our time. cool.

back to buckles etc. hooks huh? o.k. or you suggest to just use the spurs to keep them tight 'round the ankle. how about the point holes? in Rene it appears that there is a tab on the side. i believe Embleton has illustated them as holes on the side. can you clarify on the construction placement for me?

again, thank you much Jeff. your work is much admired and respected by me and i do appreciate your time and attention.

have fun.

No evidence for points to hold the fold over down. The spur straps seem to do a marginal job; the rest of the fold over in many of Rene's illo's is very loose and sloppy, indicating that there were no closures/fastenings at all, only the spur straps.

in Rene it appears that there is a tab on the side. i believe Embleton has illustated them as holes on the side. can you clarify on the construction placement for me?

You may be thinking of the tab with holes at the top of the boots. These are for pointing to the doublet to hold them up. The type of leather required for the fold over instep is very floppy and won't stand up, so you need to tie them up when you're off the horse. Riding keeps them up when your on the horse, cause the motion pushes them up your legs, but when you dismount you end up with a puddle of elkskin about your knees if you don't point them up.

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Cheers,

I don't know squat about WWII footwear.

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Cheers,

I've read that goatskin was used a lot in shoes/ boots; how do you folks feel about that?

I still haven't attempted making the boots (wasted too much time on Halloween), but I intend to shortly. I can't use spurs (although I'd prefer it) because I'm primarily going to use them in the SCA and I'm not a Knight quite yet. (Symbol of rank).

Hauptmann, are the hook & eye closures similar to modern ones or do you form them a different way? Also, am I correct to assume that these types of closures were used in the short houppellande-like overcoat seen worn with the boots? I can't see any obvious method of attachment in the pictures I have.

I'm attempting the full look of the guys with their heraldic arms thrown over their shoulders seen in Rene d'Anjou's Treatise,(the picture being described as 'the judjes entering into the town where the tournament is to be held' in the book I have). I'm trying to reproduce a reasonable facsimile from the braies up. Wish me luck!

Again, thank you all for your knowledgeable and thought- provoking input! .............Greyholt

hey, thanks for the info. i'm going to be looking further into the literature that i have at home. (i get back sunday) 'till then.

have fun.

"I'm also surprised by your citation of kid, elk, and deer in medieval shoes. You also say that there was limited use of cow. Most of the references I've seen to leather of medieval shoes cite "calf skin" as the type."

my research has been mostly hispano-centric, revolving around the period twix 1450-1550, since the group that i'm involved has an italien orientation. granted it doesn't make sense that i've been looking at MOL for refrense, but it is chuck full of information on the actual construction of shoes. (any recomendation on literature with an italien or hispanic swing, please send my way.)

checking my notes back home, kid was the top coice for shoes as per the rules of the shoemaker guild at sevilla, in particullar "cordoban". cowhide since it was thicker and durable was reserved for the sole.

this however was from a 1527 publication, a good 60 years too modern for our time period but just right for the italien group that i'm also involved with. sorry for the confusion. i've also come across citations of shoes, most made of goat, in different inventories or in record of payment throughout the late 15th and early 16th cent. not much cow or even calfskin however, this is why i cited kid, deer, elk, and limited cow (for the soles) could this be due to translation?

also in responce,

"I have also found no conclusive evidence anywhere for buckles on 15th century thigh high riding boots, that they existed at all is an assumption (and perhaps an incorrect one) that Gerry Embleton's research is correct and that he has access to sources I have not yet located."

in Durer's Paumgartner altarpiece (c. 1498-1504), right panel, St. Eustace has straps and buckles on his boots. http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/d/durer/painting/altar/paumgau3.jpg
this is late again for our time period but it indicates that buckles were infact used as a closure. as to it being used twenty years earlier????

now the tabs that i refered to in an earlier post "how about the point holes? in Rene it appears that there is a tab on the side. i believe Embleton has illustated them as holes on the side. " i was refering to the tabs to hold the boots up when dismounted by pointing them up to the doublet or pourpoint. so were these just sewn to the side of the boot? again from some of durer's questionable (as to it being durer's) early work there was a series of woodcuts (the comedies of terence, especially Syrus in Heauton timoroumenos IV? ) there is an individul with riding boots, the tops folded over and what appears to be a length of a tab coming from the fold over. were these tabs just sewed on through the upper? how then?

thanks,

dan