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Author Topic: Braies
Glen K
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posted 09-26-2000 11:53 PM     Profile for Glen K   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My basic question is: Has anybody seen any documentation that would lead one to believe that they were anything other than bleached white? Would linen of a natural color have been used?
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hauptfrau
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posted 09-27-2000 03:32 AM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I haven't seen anything in paintings except "white", which ranges from tan to brilliant white. Any of the real stuff I've seen and handled in museums is what I'd call "linen white", which is in the same range.

"Natural" linen would be less processed than white linen. Because the fibres are not processed as much, the cloth isn't as soft as whiter fabric. "Natural" linen is scratchier. Maybe OK for tents and packs, but not something I'd want to swath my bum in.

The cool thing about linen is that it bleaches fairly easily. Just washing and wearing it a lot will tend to soften and whiten it, and so will leaving it out in the sun. However, without modern chlorine bleaches, linen will never be as incandescently white as cotton. Some reenactors will add a jar of powdered tea to their linen wash to soften the color and take the edge off a modern bleach job.

Someone once told me that the Italians used unbleached ("natural") linen for smallclothes when they were in mourning, but I've been unable to verify that statement.

Gwen


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Glen K
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posted 09-27-2000 05:19 PM     Profile for Glen K   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Gwen! I ask because I have a nice new set of braies for the Templar impression, but they're of natural linen. I've already worn them once, and they were ok on me bum (it being the first time I'd ever worn braies, I was pleasantly suprised... I was afraid it'd be atrocious, especially while riding! )

Any good recipes for bleaching other than just washing with a tad of bleach?


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hauptfrau
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posted 09-27-2000 06:50 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Lessee....

Vinegar is a mild acid and bleach, you can soak them in that. Use white or you'll wind up with pink undies....a mild lye solution might work...the period texts call for urine, you could try that....

Anyone else have any ideas? Nikki? You have a lot of knowledge about fabrics-


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Nikki
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posted 09-27-2000 10:28 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've misplaced my notebook, but I think the 16-22 Coppergate book said that linen was bleached by boiling it in a solution of wood ash, then rinsing it and pegging it flat and leaving it in the sun til it bleached white. IIRC, there was a woodcut illustration in the book with linens staked out all over a hill, but I could be delusional, and I am really not certain that it was in 16-22 Coppergate at all.

After bleaching, the linen was wetted and beaten with a club to flatten the yarns and to smooth the surface of the fabric. Some glassy stones were found at York from the 10th-13th centuries which were probably used to smooth the linen by rubbing the heavy stones on the cloth.

I really highly recommend the Archaeology of York vol 17 "Small Finds" series, which has like 15 fascicules (separately bound sub-volumes). _Textile Production at 16-22 Coppergate_ was chock-full of goodies pertaining to cloth and clothing production, altho it doesn't much about fashions or articles of clothing.


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hauptfrau
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posted 09-28-2000 12:42 AM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I know lye can be leached from wood ash- do you think using straight wood ash would have the same ultimate effect as leached lye, just watered down and therefore less caustic? I'm thinking it would, and the wood ash / lye would help break down and soften the fibres.

I was sold before, but now I'm ready to be pro-active- are the Coppergate books available somewhere? Amazon? Boydell & Brewer? OxBow?


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Fire Stryker
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posted 09-28-2000 05:18 AM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Try Oxbow. However, it may be out of print, in which case try:
www.addall.com/Used/


This is a wonderful book search engine, Checks all the coolest places.


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Mike T
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posted 10-07-2000 09:19 PM     Profile for Mike T   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi, All. I seem to remember somewhere that the wetting of linen and hanging it out does the bleaching, due to the H2O assisting in the oxidization. I'm not a chemist, so this may be just a bit of hooey. Mike T.
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Dave Key
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posted 10-16-2000 12:46 PM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Try looking at some of the Schilling Chronicles for non-white .. the poseur black skimpy breeches with ties at the sides!

Just to put a cat amongst the pheasants ... does anyone know why every re-enactor I know calls them braies as every C15th English ref I've ever seen says Breeches?

Cheers
Dave


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Jamie & Christine
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posted 10-16-2000 03:14 PM     Profile for Jamie & Christine   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Folks,
I've also seen the dark grey/black skimpy string bikini style in some german images. Durer's "The Martyrdom of the Ten Thousand" shows six men wearing them. A couple men wear the more traditional 15th c. style in white fabric. I'll have to keep my eye out for other color images of these in other sources.
Cheers,
Jamie

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hauptfrau
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posted 10-17-2000 01:09 AM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
the poseur black skimpy breeches with ties at the sides!
I don't have a copy of all of the Schilling Chronicles, so I can't say I've seen them in there. I know I've seen these in very very late 15th / early 16th C. stuff, usually German. I've never seen them on anything but a German, and as Jamie says, Durer made them famous.

... does anyone know why every re-enactor I know calls them braies as every C15th English ref I've ever seen says Breeches?
Like "smock", I believe "braies" is the French term and "breeches" is the English. At least this is what my costume history books say. The books printed in the UK use 'breeches' throughout, the ones printed in the US use "braies", as I assume they use the french term.

If we are Burgundians, the assumption is we would be using the French term.

I could be completely wrong about this, so Dave, if you have some more info, I'd love to see it.

Gwen


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