As I promised, here is more grist for the mill, this time in the form of a question.

OK, we generaly have some idea as to what a common soldier in the 15th c. was likely to carry on campaign - thanks to the efforts of people on this board, and the efforts of Gerry Embleton, John Howe, all their crew, and the White Company. (My heartfelt Thank You to everyone who has contributed the hours of research and drudging through primary source material to give those of us interested in the subject this valuable information.) My own question, being enough of a loon to give a go at a good representation of a gentleman, is once you get beyond the 'tools of the trade', what would you be lugging (or more appropriately have your servants lugging) along to make your life 'bearable' on campaign?

I am assuming a gentleman who is of sufficient means to not only have his own lance, but would be in command of several - although I think we should also consider the sort of gear the lowliest Condottieri - without so much as a remount to his name.

I throw out the question to the board, and will chime in with some ideas myself. As always, any reference to primary source material is most appreciated.

600 small tents and houses, 100 other pavillions with 4 sides, two wood houses, 130 small 4 sided tents and 50 other pavillions, 6 large tents and 6 large pavillions with 4 sides and another wood house to be useful in its army.

I suppose it depends on the campaign, doesn't it? Long/short, near/far, friendly/hostile territory, and your own willingness to rough it.

We've seen depictions of entire households worth of furniture and servants piled up on waggons, and there's the reference Gwen made to the portable houses. Is that Typical? Don't know.

In a specificly mentioned city in Southern France (name escapes me - book is at home), it was common for bourgoise and gentry families to have cups made out of a Mark's weight of silver, to simplify the transactions if they became necessary.

In view of this and other evidence regarding spoils of war (Agincourt, Grandson, etc..), I had given consideration to having made a silver cup, or a charger, or a simple salt cellar (bowl or laver - like) , and having some silver spoons as a reasonable representation (mind you, I do not intend to lug around the representation of an entire collection of a 15th c. petty noblemans plate cupboard - like I could afford it!, just a couple of items I could bring in a small locked coffer).

For my own impression, I will assume I would have available a small,light two wheeled horse drawn cart to follow in the baggage train with my impedimentia stowed in it - and I intend to make one up eventually(break down for stowing in vehicle, much like some European groups have break down artilery pieces that are transported inside a normal van). I will limit myself to what such a cart could carry.

I do look forward to other input on this thread - Dave, if your out there, might a will or inventory have such things listed?

Why do I seem to be the one of the only persons responding to this thread? I thought it an interesting one, and certainly applicable to those portraying the mounted man at arms.

What to lug the gear in? A full harness cost six months of wages for a man at arms, more like three for an officer, so if I were lugging said harness around, I would be darned sure to have a chest for it. I know barrels were used for some harness, but I'd be leary of that for my custom harness. I remember the reconstruction shown in 'Arms in Action" where a knight was shown riding with his retinue, and he had a sumpter beast lugging his harness in chest like panniers on either side of the horse. How much of this is research and how much speculation, I unfortunately have no real idea. (I like talking about the containers, as they are within my ability to make - barring the barrels, but I would obtain one if appropriate.)

I would assume I would want a secure locked coffer of smallish proportion - either of iron, or iron re-enforced hardwood for any hard cash or small valuables, Perhaps another medium sized chest. What about ones wardrobe? Would it be bundled in oilskins, carried in speculated medium sized chest, or what? What would I sleep on? I am assuming having a tent to myself (not including the few servants a gentleman would have with him).

A little help here !

Jeff has a trunk for his harness, which we keep in the tent and use as a bench. We know there were often chests in the tents from looking at period artwork, but it's hard to know what's in 'em.

I spent a good part of the afternoon and most of the evening poring over "Buried Norsemen", I'll try to find time to dig around in Der Burgunderbeute tomorrow- there might be some stuff in the Mittelalerliches Hausbuch also. I'll bring my magnifying glass and see what I can discover.

You're Burgundian, right? (as opposed to English) And what's your scenario- that might be useful information in determining what you'd have with you.

Well guys, that is the problem. The Swiss never considered the difficulties of Historians following after. There are indeed lists of loot from Grandson,Morat, and Nancy, but it is very misleading. There is absolutely no reference to how many of what came out of which tent. As far as we know, what is listed could have come entirely out of the Ducal household tents (obviously improbable in the extreme) - they are only concerned with describing the loot, valuing it, and deciding wether it belongs to the Rival claimants 'Hans or Franz', or Uri vs Berne. Like the flags still existing, with very few exceptions, we have absolutely no idea as to which company they belonged.

Thank you Geoffrey, what can practicaly fit into how large a space is an important consideration.

For the record on what Wolfe Argent does, With the exception of Sir John Middletons all English company, and the three Italian companies of Ordinance, The companies of the Ordinances of 1471,72,&73 were polyglot institutions, the members of any particular company, squadron, or chambre resembling the crowd around Babel after the fall of the tower. They in small part were made up of existing retinues, and in large part of professional soldiers who arrived at the apointed rendevous when the ordinances were originaly announced - then divided between the captains & companies. One ordinance specifies that all orders must be relayed in as many languages as the men under an officers command has - the command & control problems were intensely difficult, and this lack of cohesion caused their rapid disintigration on a lost field.

I specificaly portray an English gentleman who entered the service of Burgundy shortly after the Marriage of Margaret of York to Charles the Bold with my small retinue - however, the majority of my men are as in the spirit of the original companies a mixture of Flemish, French Burgundian, Italian, and German - a good cross section of the make up of the original companies.

Maybe it's splitting hairs, but that point would make a difference in what *I / we* would be taking to events. I assume it would for you also?

I'm planning on portraying an English knight, but one very low on the scale... probably pretty close to what Bob is going for.

Will you be with the Templars @ Jamestown MTA in the spring?

And if you don't need that archer real soon, send him our way!

PS. The "Lance" term seems to apply to the Burgundians, not the WoR. The English didn't use that particular organizational structure.

The guy already has the hard stuff (bow/arrows/archery accoutrements, helmet), so he wants to get the clothing together. don't know how long it'll take him, but I'm gonna rush him.

A Lance Glen (& Jeff), the orginization was different, but it definitely was a lance. For the English, a MAA, a squire/page/valet, and a couple or three mounted archers.

They also used the term 'crewe' fro a hodge-podge of troops put together for a short interm, and organized comission of array troops into Vintinarie's and Centenaries - groups of twenty & one hundred.

To Gwens Question, I would have been in Burgundy for 3 years by 1471, so I assume most items will be of a Flemish origin. We usually portray troops of the Ordinances (begun July 1471), and so post date the 1471 arrival campaign by several months. However, the difference is more a matter of orginization, and we easily can pre date ourselves by the prerequisite 4 months to play with Red Company. :-) I assume in that case I would have been traveling light, and would in fact have to as I would need to carry only what I can fit on a plane or easily ship out to CA.!

Apologies for a late posting to this ... I've been away (home & work pressures) so just tying to catch-up on some of the threads.

You asked whether there were wills or inventories ... well sort of. The one that spings to mind immediately is in the Household books of Sir John Howard. Although for a naval cmpaign there is a list of his personal equipment (including packaging) for the 1480 campaign in Scotland. From memory the harness is in a cask but this is dredging the old grey cells.

There is also more detailed listings of equipment for the 1475 expedition but this is for the Ordnance (which is far more than just the guns) so doesn't really tie it down to individual knights etc.

With a bit of looking I'm sure I can find the refs to the number/type of person who could be brought with a knight (squires etc.)

Also ... the common way of describing an English knight was simply as a 'spere' (as opposed to an archer). I don't recall ever seeing the Continental 'Lance' formation. English soldiers were recruited by individual indenture with classically wording along the lines of 'such men as appropriate to their means' ... i.e the richer you are the more 'spears' and 'archers' you bring. But beyond this distinction it's hard to separate the individuals ... a man hired by a gentleman as a man at arms was listed as a man-at-arms or 'spear' in exactly the same way as a knight would be.

quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Errr...

A Lance Glen (& Jeff), the orginization was different, but it definitely was a lance. For the English, a MAA, a squire/page/valet, and a couple or three mounted archers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
They also used the term 'crewe' fro a hodge-podge of troops put together for a short interm, and organized comission of array troops into Vintinarie's and Centenaries - groups of twenty & one hundred.

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I'd be fascinated in the source for 'crewe' (I'd always thought it was a railway town -))

If you want to get a feel for a medieval English knight and his household this book (plus the Paston letters) are a MUST have ...

Crawford A, "The Household Books of John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, 1462-1471, 1481-1483", (Alan Sutton, Gloucester, 1992)
ISBN 0 7509 0143 8

Cheers
Dave

Many thanks for the information - now I have some place to start. Sir John Howard is a little above the station I portray, but a slight scaling back should do it. I will post any information I can lay hands on of course to add to the general knowledge.

A fardel is bundle. Now that is rather ambiguous isn't it. (could mean a sack)

As for a garviande...I have no idea, could be a larger box.

La destruco de troye
La Recuel des histories troianes
Labre des batailes
Pontius
Sir Baudin, cote de Flandres
La belle d. s. mercy
Les Acusasions de la d.
Le Myror delamort
Le Jeu des Eches
Le Jeu des Des
Le Debat de la demoiselle st bo freres
Lamant rendu Cordelier

Les d dessages
Paris et Vienne

The last 2 are in a later hand

If anyone knows if these are available anywhere, or give a brief synopsis of the content I'd be interested.

In a cofer,a harneis complyte, and a bykkete, and a standart of meyle, and a peire of gussetes, and a folde of meyle, a salade garnessed with golde, x.lb dates, and v.loffes of suger. A vestment, a super altar, a corporas, a chalys, a mesbooke, an auter cloth.

In a gardviande, a peir brigandines, a plakart, ij. bavieres, iij. peire ganteletz, a salate garnissed with golde, anoder with a bokle and pendant gilte, a peir mahewtrys, and ij. olde bavieres; a peir brigandines, slyves of velwet.
In anoder coder, iiij. peir schitz for my Lord, ij. bedchitz, ij. peir schites for the paylet, x. schertes, ij. armyng dobletz, and a jakete of leder, vj. napkins, iij. toayles, a keurepayn, vj. white bolles unkeuryng, a grete bassyn of silver, a casse with iiij. gobletez, a layer, a salt, a candelstik and iiij. sponys, a pyssyng bassyn of silver. Item, ij. lytel saltes of beral, and vj. silver sponys. Item, ij. grete potz of silver, a bagge with gussetz, ij. salades, a peir tabuls, a bagge with cheste men, a piece of canvas.

In a fardel, ij. federbedes, ij. bolsters, a materas with a bolster, a pylowe of donne, ij. spavers, a peir fustianes, a peir blankets, and a quylte, iiij. contrepoyntes of tapestry werke.

Item, vij peir hosen
Item, a long gown of blak satin, lyned with purpil velwet
Item, ij. dobletz of cremesyn satin
Item, a doblet, popegay colour
Item, a mantelyn of blewe velwet
Item, a schorte gown tany velwet
Item, a jaket of cloth of golde
Item, a jaket for the child, Tousain
Item, ij. peir schone for caltroppes
Item, a peir arming schone
Item, ij. peir new slippers
Item, iij. peir other schone
Item, a piec of xxxvij. elnes for tabul cloth
Item, ij. newe tabul clothes for my Lord
Item, iij. coarser tabul cloth
Item, iij. coarser toayles
Item, a long gowne, russet, forred with leopardes.

Item, my Lord

Item, anoder coffer ther, wite cloth, and bonetes, and other gere.

- a cofer with shirts(10), bedlinen. arming doublets, [etc.]
- a list of clothes (7 pair hose, 3 doublets, 2 long gowns(one lined with purple velvet the other furred with leopard!), 1 short gown, a mantel, a jacket, 2 slippers, 2 shoes, 2 shoes for caltrops and 1 pair arming shoes!) [etc]
- another coffer with various clothes "bonetes, and other gere"

*10* shirts! *7* pairs of hose! A mess of other clothes! I defy ANYONE to tell me that medieval people were filthy cretins wallowing in their own stench. This guy could probably change his shirt twice a day if he wanted to!