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Author Topic: Period Round Pavilions with Hoops
Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon
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posted 08-03-2000 10:00 PM     Profile for Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In many illustrations such as Froissart "Charles of Blois Taken Prisoner", made during the 15th C., round pavilions are shown maintaining their circular shape when being carried, or knocked down in this example. They are shown without ropes or perimeter poles, as well. Is this artistic license, or is there an internal supporting structure? I propose a bit of experimental archeology. I have made one style, a hoop of wood supported by cotton webbing running to a ring supported by the center pole. Next to me at Pennsic, will be Robert' de Tyre, who will be demonstrating his design of spokes supported by a central hub. I invite Herr Hauptmann to judge at rib night. I invite Robert' to describe his design, as I will, and to contact Andy Goddard C.1265 to explain his hoop/spoke design. When Herr Hauptmann returns from Pennsic, he can post his observations of our attempts. Sound like a plan?
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Jamie & Christine
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posted 08-04-2000 02:30 PM     Profile for Jamie & Christine   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Geoffrey,
I have seen the spoked hoop tent at Pennsic, but I have not seen the images from Froissart that you refer to. However, I have a couple images from the book THE ARTIST AND WARFARE IN THE RENAISSANCE that show round pavilions in various stages of set-up. One image is Italian 1460's. It shows tents with seperate hanging walls, crow's foot guylines, and no hoops. The second is c.1515 and shows tall round pavilions in which the center pole is planted in the ground so it stands with no guylines, again with no hoops. I'm not saying noone ever put hoops in pavilions, but they definitly had them without hoops.
One thing to consider is that hoops add to the amount of lumber you have to haul around, esp. a spoked hoop. In medieval armies baggage space was very limited, and only a high ranking individual would have the space for a decent size spoked pavilion.
Cheers, Jamie

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hauptmann
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posted 08-05-2000 02:20 AM     Profile for hauptmann     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm up for it. I can explain my hooped oval marquis too.

JH


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chef de chambre
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posted 08-05-2000 08:35 AM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Guys,

Monsieur Geoffrey, I think that what you propose is an excellent idea. The principle value of living history groups to the discipline of History IS precisely that of widening our knowledge through experimental Archaeology. I wish you success, and only wish I could be there myself.

I hate to disagree with you Jamie, but Late Medieval/Early Modern armies carried a monumental ammount of crap with them wherever they went. The slow going in terms of a march an army might make is in part due to the enormous size of the supply train, and the ammount of non-fighting mouths that would follow.

At the upper end of the scale, you had the nobility who would be lugging plate (both to eat off of, impress, and provide a ready source of cash should the need arise) tent hangings, beds, and the impedimentia that made up the household on the move in peacetime, as well as cooking gear that would be an addition in wartime. The Burgundian army of Charles the Bold was provided with thousands of tents a year, of all sizes, and several complete houses that could be knocked down and put up. In 1465, the Burgundian army had for lack of a bettter word, a combat engineer unit - complete with a portable bridge - the floats to be made of barrels (I think they carried them in wagons knocked down as staves & hoops). It actually got used in 'combat'.

At the smaller end of the scale, I seem to remember that for the 1481 expedition against Scotland, the city of York's contingent of 40 (?) mounted archers were accompanied by two carts to lug impedimentia.

I think it safer to say that if you were of sufficent social standing to rate your own pavillion (rather than sharing a double bell wedge with 5 other archers - assuming you to be so lucky), then the space in the baggage for a knock down hoop for a tent would be no problem - you probably had your own cart.

------------------
Bob R.


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Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon
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posted 08-05-2000 01:47 PM     Profile for Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I started with a 12' round Monarch pavilion with 9' eaves as can be seen at the bottom of our page @

http://members.xoom.com/bascot/Table_of_Contents.htm

(the blue and white tents). I used 6' long 1 1/2" X 3/4" ash. I had the sawmill rip them down to 3/8" thick in order to bend them. I left them overnight under a leaky water barrel, then bent each one like a bow with a piece of string an left them to dry. I alternated or overlapped them and drilled holes and ran carriage bolts to hold them in shape. I then glued the pieces, and am replacing the bolts today with brass rivets. It was my intention to make it in two pieces and bolt together for travel, but it went "oval" on me that way, so it is a 9' hoop, just 2" shy of the width of my van's mirrors. THAT should prove an interesting sight on the way to Pennsic! We took a 2" ring for the top of the pole, and Patty sewed 5 pieces of cotton 1" re-enforcing webbing (Panther Prim. supplied) about 10' long. Next, we set up the tent, held the hoop in place and marked the webbing to be sewed on the hoop. This gives us a hoop/pole that supports ALL the weight of the canvas on a frame. The canvas lays over this frame and only requires stakes in the wall to hold it upright. The perimeter ropes are no longer needed. This immediately allows you to have a tent larger in size without ripping the fabric. Necessary if you are going to mount your horse and ride out of the tent at a tournament. (Ever see a horse peering out of a tent in a period illustration? Sorry I've forgotten the sources.) I finished with stain, boiled linseed oil and finally, beeswax melted in linseed oil.

[This message has been edited by Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon (edited 08-05-2000).]


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Fire Stryker
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posted 08-05-2000 04:41 PM     Profile for Fire Stryker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Horses peering out of tents? Why yes. In DIE BURGUNDERBUETE there is a 15th c. illustration of a Burgundian tent that has nothing but horses in it. If I can get my scanner to work, we will scan it and post it.

Jenn


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Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon
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posted 08-05-2000 06:48 PM     Profile for Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
In the Osprey Knights at Tournament book page 11 An encampment before a tournament, c1360. The picture shows a horse peering out the door of a round pavilion with no ropes & a circular eave, while a second horse (its butt, actually) shown entering a rectangular tent also with no ropes.
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Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon
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posted 08-25-2000 01:23 PM     Profile for Monsieur Geoffrey de Leon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, our hooped design worked for Pennsic this year. I left the ropes attached for wind, although they were not necessary. We were able to hang belts, cloaks, swords and such from hooks on the hoops, which really cleared up the clutter. We also hung pieces of thin white cotton in front of the door flaps, so we could leave open the flaps but still have privacy. There was more headroom, since the walls/roof didn't sag in. Driving 8 hrs. with a 12' wooden hood on the roof was interesting, though. It really whines at 75 mph. We are going to add 5 more straps to the ring/hoop to match the amount of seams in the tent. Then I think I'm going to get Mike Negy to help me cast 10 bronze lion heads about 2" in diameter, with a rivet-like rod through the back about 3/8" dia. and long enough to go through the tent grommets, the hoop itself, and stick out the inside of the tent enough to drill a hole to put a tie or cotter pin-type attachment to hold the canvas to the hoop. Sorry, it's the French way-ostentatious displays of wealth and extravagance!!!
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