Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
»  FireStryker Living History Forum   » History   » Medieval Lifestyles, Activities, and Equipment   » holey clothes

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: holey clothes
Nikki
Member
Member # 27

posted 05-19-2000 12:56 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am playing with a new (altho borrowed) toy here, "The Medieval Health Handbook, _Tacuinum Sanitatis_" (isbn 0-8076-0808-4), and there is an illustration of some people eating ricotta (the Paris Tacuinum, if you have the book). I think the Paris manuscript is from around 1380, btw. Anyway, both of the men in the illustration are wearing hosen with large gaping holes at the knee, the heel, the calf, and possibly the toe. There are also holes in other illstrations, some from other manuscripts (like the Rouen one), with holes in the knee of the hosen, the sleeve of a tunic-thing, and the heel. The only other place that I recall seeing holed or repaired garments is from Duc DuBerry. Anyone else know of any illustrations with damaged or repaired clothing? None of the people in these manuscripts seemed to have bothered patching or repairing anything.

Unfortunately, most of the illustrations in the book that I have now (which has like 4 or 5 versions of the Tacuinum) are small and b&w, but as soon as the Depository people at the library get around to it, I should be able to get copy of a full-size version of the plates, at least from one of the Tacuinums.

-nikki


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
hauptfrau
New Member
Member # 0

posted 05-19-2000 05:07 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Nikki-

People with holes in their clothes appear in all sorts of places- The Mittelauterliches Hausbuch, paintings by van der Wyden, van Eyk, etc. I can cite specifics if you'd like.

An interesting thing I found is that many of the clothes dug up at Herjolfsness had repairs **but all of the repairs were in the form of applied patches, not darning**. This blew my mind because it is incredibly easy to mend wool by darning, but apparently it was an unknown technique. Either that or there's another reason that's not immediately apparent.

Something to note is that virtually all of the people with holey clothes are lower class /workers. I can't remember ever seeing upper class people with holes in their clothes. I think they sold them, donated them or otherwise passed them on before they got to that state.

Gwen


Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Anne-Marie
Member
Member # 8

posted 05-22-2000 10:19 AM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hey all from Anne-Marie

Gwen sez:
People with holes in their clothes appear in all sorts of places- The Mittelauterliches Hausbuch, paintings by van der Wyden, van Eyk, etc. I can cite specifics if you'd like.
<snip>
Something to note is that virtually all of the people with holey clothes are lower class /workers. I can't remember ever seeing upper class people with holes in their clothes. I think they sold them, donated them or otherwise passed them on before they got to that state.

its good to remember as well taht medieval artists were big into allegory and iconography. Specifically, you can tell that this is the Virgin cuz she's wearing a blue mantle and has that big gold dinner plate behind her head. the Magdalene is always represented in regular middle class clothing and often carries that ungent jar. You can tell "furriners" by the goofy hats they're wearing. Its possible that in medieval icongraphy "poor people" are represented by holey hose. If joe illerate medieval guy is looking at a picture and he sees a picture of guy wearing a doublet and hose with holes in 'em, he knows!

as for patching vs darning, is it possible that its done prophylactically? ie like we put patches on kids jeans BEFORE they wear out, as kind of an extra layer to protect the garment underneath?

just an idea...
--AM


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
hauptfrau
New Member
Member # 0

posted 05-22-2000 12:50 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"as for patching vs darning, is it possible that its done prophylactically? ie like we put patches on kids jeans BEFORE they wear out, as kind of an extra layer to protect the garment underneath?"

All of the patches were over wear spots, tears or holes, so I doubt this.

"Its possible that in medieval icongraphy "poor people" are represented by holey hose."

While I'm not willing to go so far as to say this NEVER happened, I'm inclined to believe that at least some of the people in mediedieval paintings are fair representations of what was actually going on around the painter - "filler" if you will. I'd need some serious convincing to believe that everyone in a painting is representative of something specific.

You're a scientist, you know about controls "OK, this guy looks like us, and this one doesn't - which one do you think is Jesus?"

Gwen


Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Nikki
Member
Member # 27

posted 05-22-2000 01:55 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Well, one of the reasons that I asked about this is the tendency to replace items of clothing when they start wearing out. If something suddenly tears in the middle of an event, it will probably get an emergency sort of patch to last out the event, but unless the damage is fairly minor, it will likely be replaced instead of mended. While this is a good excuse for either having fun making new stuff or improving on the design/fit/authenticity of the piece, it might be good to have more of an older/repaired feel to the camp. One of my dresses has taken some (fairly minor) fire damage from flying coals, and i've so far been patching the larger holes with scraps of the original fabric, but how likely is it that the original fabric would be available (saving all of the excess fabric, yes, certainly, but would it be something you would lug around with a mobile military camp)? Is it better to just leave the holes in the fabric?

And somewhat relatedly, there is the issue of washing clothes (particularly the linen, sometimes the wool). Most people (afaik) throw the linens at least into the wash between events, and some dry clean the wools (or silks). While this is definately desirable in terms of keeping your closet/room from reeking of woodsmoke, and for your personal enjoying in wearing the clothes to the next event, is it really that realistic? How often were things washed in the winter? If you are portraying a late-winter scene, should people be rather grungy? Would they be less grungy in the summer, when you can wash clothes in a stream without getting hypothermia?

-nikki


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
hauptfrau
New Member
Member # 0

posted 05-22-2000 03:54 PM     Profile for hauptfrau     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Nikki-

I think the decision to either replace or repair clothes should be largely determined by the class you're portraying. If you portray an upper class person, by all mneans replace the item. If you're just the wife of one of the soldier schlubs (love that word Mike!) I'd say let a tear or hole go until it imperils the longevity of the garment, then patch it with whatever you have around, preferably a scap of something else that's worn.

In the Red Company we have several approaches to the situation of worn clothing. One is handing things off to members who are lower down the ladder than you are; I regularly give Amanda my used clothing. No, it doesn't fit her as well and it usually shows signs of wear, but this is a good thing since I'm the Captain's wife and she's a soldier's wife. Because of this, my clothes always look "nicer" than Amanda's, which is historically correct.

Another option is to intentionally age your clothing so it doesn't look "right from the tailor" new. As a matter of fact, this weekend I noticed that Godlefe's gown had a hole under one arm. When I questioned her about it, she showed me a corresponding hole in the other armpit that had been mended. Seems that in using sandpaper to give her brand-new dress that -lived in look, she sanded a bit too vigorously and went clear through the fabric! In addition to sandpaper, steel wool, bleach, muriatic acid, dye splotches and charcoal, simply putting a new gown into the washer with a dose of all-fabric bleach and allowing it to agitate for several long cycles will rough up the edges and take the color down a notch or two.

My favorite method of getting that-lived in look is by using old fabric. This is especially successful when making men's doublets and coats. Old wool blankets from the thrift are cheaply had and usually contain all sorts of interesting holes and stains. A bit of judicious pattern positioning and the holes will fall in the proper place- across the forarm, around the waist, across the belly, etc. This is a great technique because the garment has the useful life of a brand-new piece, but looks old. Several of our guys have doublets and coats made this way and I think they look the best.

As far as washing goes, I launder my linens and undergowns after each event. I wash my overgown as infrequently as possible, finding that if I let it hang in the garage or other airy place for a few weeks or month the smoke smell pretty much goes away. A light spray with Lysol or Febreeze also helps.

I believe medieval people were as clean as circumstances allow them to be, and I don't buy for a minute that people of the general class we portray would go for extended periods without washing or cleaning up. If you have 2 chemises, it's fairly simple to wash one while you're wearing the other, even if you don't want to do that every day. It can be swished out in a bucket of water in your home or tent, you wouldn't need to go to the well or a stream to do it.

Personally, I wash up every night at events, even when it's cold. I heat a bit of water up, put it in a bucket and take it in my tent. I strip to my chemise and wash all the exposed bits first (except my feet), including my legs which are covered by my chemise. Then I strip off my chemise and do my body, and put on a clean chemise or nightshirt. I finish up with my feet and ankles, dump the water outside the tent and jump into bed. A warm brick wrapped in a bit of fabric in the bottom of the bed warms me right back up. No, it's not the same as taking a hot shower, but I can go this way for a week or more and not feel at all disgusting or smelly. I believe my medieval counterpart would have been of hardier constitution, and so bathing like this wouldn't have been unpleasant at all. I've read plenty of accounts of Victorians who had to break the ice in their washing pitchers in the AM so they could wash their face- we've just gotten soft since the invention of central heating and plumbing.

Gwen


Registered: A Long Time Ago!  |  IP: Logged
Anne-Marie
Member
Member # 8

posted 05-24-2000 02:16 AM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Gwen sez:
You're a scientist, you know about controls "OK, this guy looks like us, and this one doesn't - which one do you think is Jesus?"

that's easy! Jesus is the one making a peace sign with one hand and with the shiney dinner plate behind his head!

--AM, your friendly resident science geek with "trained powers of observation"



Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Templar Bob
Member
Member # 6

posted 05-25-2000 04:16 PM     Profile for Templar Bob   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Very enlightening...and thought-provoking! But I have a question. Any iconographic evidence of clerics with holes in their habits or robes other than the Franciscans?

Robert Coleman, Jr.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged
Godlefe
Member
Member # 10

posted 05-25-2000 04:57 PM     Profile for Godlefe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Blast,
I just read the thing about no evidence of darning holes - I just did darn that hole that you pointed out, Gwen. I'll be blowed if I'm going to un-darn it tho, unless you throw me down and put your knee in my back!! V

Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Wolfe Argent Living History

Copyright © 2000-2009 Wolfe Argent Living History. All Rights reserved under International Copyright Conventions. No part of this website may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying, recording, or by any information storage or retrieval system, without permission of the content providers. Individual rights remain with the owners of the posted material.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
Ultimate Bulletin Board 6.01