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"As long as there are heretics there will always be fanatics."

Let me ask you a few questions and I'll try and give you a couple of reasons why. And if the following is already familiar to you, accept my humble apologies in advance. But you never know who you are "talking" to nor their background.

Many frequenters of this forum work with historical documents and focus on fact and history rather than recreation. (Living history versus SCA for example.) And quite a few who frequent this forum participate in both but they are not the same.

First: When it comes to period references, they are considered fight systems as Western Martial Arts. Such as certain systems or equipment used in specific Eastern or Asian martial Arts. So not to be picky, but most commonly sword and shield (need to specify shield) is different even from sword and buckler (an example being the I.33 manuscript).

Second: What time period? From a historical perspective. 1200 is not 1400 is not 1475 is not 1550.... The type of sword you have matters and so does the type of shield.

Third: As I hinted before, for what background are you asking. Example. German versus Italian masters even of the same time period (1450-1550) differed in their opinions on different methods of fighting. If you are looking for something that is for SCA use, you will have some problems as the SCA heavy combat has corrupted how these systems naturally work (no lower leg shots or thrusts for safety reasons changes many things including how you use a shield to protect yourself).

Four: Please... While Clements worked hard to come up with a practical book, it is so non historical based that it cannot even be related to it. In addition, by his over simplification, the book has lost all of the finesse and technical aspects that was so important in the historical systems. However, his book is helpful (to a point) if you have never held a sword and are starting from the point of understand just high medium and low strikes both on and off center. But it is so modernized that you have no reference or guide to help understand the proper material.

So... If you could be more specific in a time period, sword style, for what purpose (historical, SCA, etc.), and even what area of medieval Europe you are interested in.

However, realize that except for a few scraps of material from the 1300's and specifically the I.33 publication, most historical documents are from the later 1400's on. Particularly the mid 15th century. But it depends on what and where.

The round shield is a different animal in a shield wall than against a single opponent. Not utilizing the guige strap is probably a common deficiency in our studies. While the centre grip lends itself to buckler moves, the guige strap also sets both of your hands "relatively" free. (Using the left like you would playing pool with a spear, while controlling the strap with your thumb.)

The kite shield is designed to offer protection on horseback to the vulnerable left side, leg especially, but on Richard's march in Outremer, the lines where packed so tightly together that the first man protected his horse's head and the back of his shield the nose of the next horse (over the first's rump) on down the line, with the foot soldiers carrying theirs to not only protect themselves, but also the horses' legs. This made the whole line invulnerable to sarecen arrows. Period illustrations of kite shields show dozens of strapping methods, therefore it is realistic to assume there were many ways of using it.

The heater shield, being smaller, would be useful not only for horseback, but could be used more actively in foot combat. The double-strap system would not allow buckler moves like those shown in I.33.

I wish we had strong information like the 15th - 16th C. manuals for earlier periods, but I've yet to see anything but the results of "experimental archeaology". I'd be extremely happy if anyone could prove me wrong with something besides I.33 buckler work or 15th C. Fechtbooks showing judicial combat.

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"As long as there are heretics there will always be fanatics."

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Originally posted by Winterfell:


As for John Clements, I am always interested in knowing on what historical references people are basing their techniques on. Since I do not know how to contact him directly, I am curious if anyone here might know about it.
Thanks.

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"As long as there are heretics there will always be fanatics."

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Clements is not known for taking kindly to people who dare to imply that his research is less than perfect. Should you write him directly, I suggest you do so with care.

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That is uncalled for and inaccurate. I've argued points before with him and when he thought I was right he asked me to write it up in essay form to print on the site. If you copy his research, then take credit for it, he does get testy.

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That is uncalled for and inaccurate. I've argued points before with him and when he thought I was right he asked me to write it up in essay form to print on the site. If you copy his research, then take credit for it, he does get testy.

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It's an observation, an opinion and advice. Any or all of which may be accepted or rejected at the reader's discretion. There was no slander involved in the statement. And I didn't call him a jerk or a liar (which is what saying "uncalled for and inaccurate" does).

I'm interested - how does one take credit for his research? I can't support the "sin" of plagarism, but the historic manuals he uses are the same ones available to most of the WMA community, so of course there is bound to be overlap. He did do some of the earliest work in publicising the contents therein, but they are pretty much in the public domain, so of course others are going to use them as a resource. Can professional researchers shed some light on common practice regarding research rights?

BTW - cool French tilting helm on the profile pic. Do you really wear it when using a bec?

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Jenn

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