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Author Topic: but will it cut butter?
Ulfgar
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posted 10-01-2002 07:08 PM     Profile for Ulfgar     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Apologies if this has already been discussed somewhere else, but I just gotta know.
Some of the fencing manuals show moves striking with the butt end of the sword whilst gripping the blade. This makes me wonder just how sharp the blades in common usage actually were. Surely anyone entering into a fight would want the weapon as sharp as possible? Or was only the last ten inches of the blade actually sharp, like the eighteenth century cavalry sabres often were? Has anyone examined enough original blades to tell?

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Yes, these are bruises from fighting.That's right, I'm enlightened!


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chef de chambre
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posted 10-01-2002 11:12 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Ulfgar,

There is every indication they were very sharp - certainly the few I personaly have handled were. You can grab a sharp blade with your bare hand so long as you hold it firmly - if your hand slides, then you will be cut. If you are wearing a gauntlet, you will be much less likely to be cut.

Halfswording technique (where the person grips his own blade to steady a thrust) is usually an armoured combat technique, and so gauntlets would be involved. There is no indication of a ricasso proper on swordblades until the Renaissance.

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Bob R.


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Bob Charron
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posted 10-04-2002 09:16 AM     Profile for Bob Charron   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Julian,

Mark Hollingshead and Randy (I apologize for forgetting his last name) have done this experiment with sharp blades and without injury.

In the Gladiatoria treatise (a judicial duel in full harness but without gauntlets in all but a couple of plates) shows this technique done with bare hands.

This technique basically turns your sword into a pollaxe.

As Bob says, don't let your hand slide and you'll be fine.

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Bob Charron


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Taylor Ellis
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posted 02-18-2003 01:28 AM     Profile for Taylor Ellis     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
There is no indication of a ricasso proper on swordblades until the Renaissance.

If you look in Oakeshott's Records of the Medieval Sword there is a XII with a short ricasso. Not what you meant by a proper ricasso, but very interesting none the less, no?

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Alan F
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posted 02-18-2003 09:11 PM     Profile for Alan F   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I can answer this - a lot of swords were only sharpened from the last five - seven inches of the blade. A sword is, basically, a steel bar, and the majority of injuries inflicted by them would be broken bones.
The reason is simple: A man with a broken arm is just as unlikely to continue fighting as one who's had his arm lopped off!
One of the most common injuries that arose from this was the broken collar bone, which would have effectively ended the working lives of most of those engaged in agricultural work.

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NEIL G
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posted 02-19-2003 06:44 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Alan;

With respect, while sharpening only the last few inches of a sword was certainly a common napoleonic and later practice, I'm not sure we can read this back to our period.

I'm not aware of any evidence for it, and there is clear evidence against it. Consider, for example, some of the drawing cuts illustrated in the fechtbooks, which would be completely ineffective unless the blade was sharpened along at least the greater part of its length.

Any thoughts?

Neil


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Gordon Clark
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posted 02-19-2003 10:06 AM     Profile for Gordon Clark     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I believe there was at least one type of sword that was basically a steel bar, but you can't say all swords were like that. Simplistically, swords were for cutting, for thrusting, or both. Swords made mostly for thrusting might or might not have very sharp edges. Swords mostly for cutting had sharp wide, flat, relatively thin blades, often with a fuller well down the length of the blade. Swords for both (“cut and thrust” swords) were often of a flattened diamond cross section, sharp down their length, and fairly broad at the point you might use to strike with on the blade, but tapering to a sharp point for thrusting, sometimes with a reinforced tip. This is basically what I remember from reading Oakeshott’s works, try Archeology of Weapons, The Sword in the Age of Chivalry or Records of the Medieval Sword for more info. (hope I got the titles right).

quote:
Originally posted by Alan F:
I can answer this - a lot of swords were only sharpened from the last five - seven inches of the blade. A sword is, basically, a steel bar, and the majority of injuries inflicted by them would be broken bones.
The reason is simple: A man with a broken arm is just as unlikely to continue fighting as one who's had his arm lopped off!
One of the most common injuries that arose from this was the broken collar bone, which would have effectively ended the working lives of most of those engaged in agricultural work.


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Alan F
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posted 02-19-2003 10:49 AM     Profile for Alan F   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It's actually something we cover a lot of in my group - as you'll be aware, there's this whole myth thing centred around swords, and we show how, in effect, they were ineffectual against weapons such as spear, pike or halberd. The most common injury inflicted on someone with a sword is that of a broken collarbone. The cuts were never very clean - to modern eyes it looks like a crowbar of baseball bat has done the job! There is a lot of archaeological evidence of this from both the Scottish Wars of Independence and the Wars of the Roses.
That said, there were probably those who had the full lentgh of the sword sharpened. However, a lot of the time, it was only the last few inches that were sharpened, thus making it easier to use the point, and bringing in the point vs the edge idea, that the point always beats the edge.

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Arik
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posted 02-19-2003 02:46 PM     Profile for Arik     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
If a person was wearing some form of armor, and struck with a sword on the shoulder or clavical. It may well appear to have been smashed by a club or "Crowbar". The force of impact would be spread out not focused. And a sword that is not razor sharp is more likely then one that is. But crowbar sharp is not in the realm of reality.
This is just my humble opinion.
Have a nice day

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Arik


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Donnachaidh
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posted 02-20-2003 04:46 AM     Profile for Donnachaidh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alan F:
It's actually something we cover a lot of in my group - as you'll be aware, there's this whole myth thing centred around swords, and we show how, in effect, they were ineffectual against weapons such as spear, pike or halberd. The most common injury inflicted on someone with a sword is that of a broken collarbone. The cuts were never very clean - to modern eyes it looks like a crowbar of baseball bat has done the job! There is a lot of archaeological evidence of this from both the Scottish Wars of Independence and the Wars of the Roses.
That said, there were probably those who had the full lentgh of the sword sharpened. However, a lot of the time, it was only the last few inches that were sharpened, thus making it easier to use the point, and bringing in the point vs the edge idea, that the point always beats the edge.

Hi Alan,

There are references from the Crusades which back up what you are saying (also the story of the sword and the cushion)

If I understand it right, the whole blade had an edge, with just the last third (for sake of argument) being sharpened.

Does that sound right???

Also, and from a modern perspective, most decapitations in accidents of varying nature are caused by very blunt objects


Andy

PS
Alan, lock your doors, the "Beast Devlin" (tm) is moving back to Scotland this weekend although Ayrshire is still a long way short of God's own country..!


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Ulfgar
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posted 02-20-2003 07:45 PM     Profile for Ulfgar     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
OK then, can anyone who has actually examined any original swords shed some light on this? Were the blades fully sharp or show signs of ancient sharpening?

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Yes, these are bruises from fighting.That's right, I'm enlightened!


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Donnachaidh
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posted 02-21-2003 02:57 AM     Profile for Donnachaidh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I have put the question to a friend who works with the sword collection at the Royal Armouries. I'l let you know what he says.
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Gordon Clark
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posted 02-21-2003 11:49 AM     Profile for Gordon Clark     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
This question has been visited on the SwordForum multiple times. Peter Johnsson, who has seen hundreds of swords from museums all over the world has weighed in there. Here is a link to one of the threads http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=8d8047f7539a6cf0dabf4327c45b71b7&threadid=15208

Here is an excerpt:
Quoting Peter Johnsson without permission:

It is true that crushing and impaling weapons might be more efficient against armour, but there were never any battlefield through history where every combatant wore full armour. Nor will any armour afford complete protection. The sword will rarely be used to defeat the armour itself, but rather the opponent inside it. A sword is a precision weapon used to exploit gaps in defence and armour. It also needs to be sharp to be used to full effect. Just how sharp from what kind of grind will vary depending of type of sword and historical period.
And sure, an edge will chip when misused or strained. That can be taken care of by resharpening. No woodworker expects his tools to go unmarked through use. Sharpening tools is part of the trade.
...
A blunt edge would certainly hurt and might well kill, but swords intended for cutting did not have rebated edges. Ever. Trust me on that one.
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End Quote.
Hope this helps.

Gordon


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chef de chambre
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posted 02-21-2003 05:23 PM     Profile for chef de chambre   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Two I have handled in the Higgins -

One c 1100, was sharp. One, c. 1400, had been razor sharp when deposited in a river, and was still sharp when found.

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Bob R.


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NEIL G
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posted 02-24-2003 03:41 AM     Profile for NEIL G     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Doesn't Mancini explicitly refer to English troops carrying swords "Sharp as razors" in 1471?
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Otto von Teich
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posted 04-20-2003 12:50 PM     Profile for Otto von Teich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The only one I have in my collection, which is composite,is sharp all the way from the hilt to the tip,on both sides. The hilt is early 16th cent, the blade late 16th early 17th......Otto
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