Reasons for declining:
- Never practiced with the person before
- Have seen him "fight" others
- His equipment is heavy, jagged, bent, or otherwise seems unsafe.
- He seems a bit too enthusiastic about "breaking in" a new piece of my equipment

My feeling is that demos are unsafe enough without adding to the risk.

Simple. Deal with the matter before the demo even begins. On those rare occasions I play SCA, there are lots of people who want to see if they can play "dent the shiny guy's kit". I nearly got concussed at an event because some Meridian redneck with a plastic Godzilla taped to his helmet made a point of it. I had blurred vision the rest of the day and a stiff neck the remainder of that week.

While this is not representative of the types of people out there, they do exist. I see no reason to encourage them.

I have no problem telling an individual "I will not fight you---I feel you are unsafe". It causes heartburn, but it'll save my family a lawsuit in the event of my death due to someone's irresponsible, willful malice on the field.

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Robert Coleman, Jr.
The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice
Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

By all means, tell him before why you won't fight him. In the Knights of Trinity, we had this one big ape who, once he got knighted, turned up the power. Patty quit fighting all together once she fought him at a Faire. He told me if I couldn't take it, don't fight him. Then in a melee, he was picking on someone, and hit him so hard with a mace it knocked the guy flat on his back, helm & weapons flying with a chipped tooth. (This was with steel at a Ren. Faire.) The next time I ran interference, being a better fighter the the one guy, and the ape hit me so hard it smashed in the side of my barrel helm. A little harder and I'd of had a concussion. We had to remove all the rivets and beat the helm out & weld the weakened parts. I quit fighting him altogether after that. There is no reason to have to put up with that sort of nonsense.

If you have someone in your group you don't trust with fighting, kick his ass the hell out, or don't EVER let him fight. This game is too dangerous to have unsafe people swinging 3 foot long knives at each other. I also don't think tact is required if someone threatens your life or property.

How do you tell him he's out. Easy. Tell him you don't want to be dead or in the hospital and neither does he.

If his gear is unsafe, don't fight him until he fixes the problem, and encourage others to have a similar position. If that means he can't fight till next event, so be it.

I'm not saying that injuries or accidents won't happen. I just have zero tolerance for people who don't have a healthy respect for medieval weapons. They can kill you.

It became readily apparent to me when I took Bob Charron's Flos Duellatorum class, that even a hand exerting the proper leverage can ruin your life. A grabbed wrist and pressure to the elbow can DESTROY that arm with astonishingly little force.

I won't fight against someone who isn't a friend that I trust with my body. Period.

Luckily, I am blessed with a group of people I trust implicitly. Especially Bill, who I trust not to kill my horse when we do mounted sword combat and tilting.

Boy, am I opinionated, or what?

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Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock http://www.historicenterprises.com

Boy, am I opinionated, or what?"

No, not really. It's dangerous when you're doing stuff on foot, but when horseback stuff comes into play, there are a ton more factors to deal with. One season in the joust Dave (the owner) pulled somebody out of the knight spot without hesitation because he was getting real sloppy (Dave recieved three groin shots in five passes...). When you're doing stuff that is on numerous historical records as having resulted in the death of many, you 1) have to take it damn seriously and 2) be able to trust who you're doing this stuff with. Those things are a must.

I would rather be perceived as a snob or a jerk than to have this person hurt me or someone I love or care about. Someone who has no control or understanding of this sort of combat, mounted or on foot, should not engage in it until they know what they are doing and even then you can't let your guard down.

When I spar, I want to tag someone with just enough force to let them know I "got em" not stave their head in or run them through.

If you think the person is unsafe, just decline. If the guy asks why, tell him. He may be willing to learn. If he persists without benefit of training/workshops or resorts to name calling, you are better off not getting involved. If the guy has a problem with your declining, it is his, not yours. Safety first.

I think the echo is pretty strong regarding this issue. I think the guy with the Godzilla on his head that Templar Bob faced or the one that Bascot dealt with sound like nightmares made manifest and only serve to illustrate the concerns you are entertaining.

You don't want to deal with anyone who is looking to do you an injury. Nearly concussing someone sounds like a deliberate attempt to me. Either that or they are so unskilled in the art that they can't help but be a danger to others. Even the most skilled fighter can get hurt by a novice. In either case that person shouldn't be allowed to use steel (rebated or not) without supervision or training. A lot of us have joined western martial arts groups or participate in workshops so that we can learn the skill and control needed to perform the feats and have fun without injuring ourselves or others. We shouldn't make exceptions because someone might pitch a fit over it or concerned how others might perceive us because we refuse for logical, not personal, reasons.

Just a question. Has anyone talked to him about his equipment or his unbridled ethusiasm to "break in" new pieces of equipment? Has this fellow you are talking about participated in any weapon practice sessions with you or your group? If not, maybe someone should approach him. Hopefully he will accept the advice with good grace. If not... I agree with Hauptmann, he has no place in the group if he is not willing to play well with others or safety is a marginal concern to him.

quote:

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
I think the guy with the Godzilla on his head that Templar Bob faced or the one that Bascot dealt with sound like nightmares made manifest and only serve to illustrate the concerns you are entertaining.

Just a question. Has anyone talked to him about his equipment or his unbridled ethusiasm to "break in" new pieces of equipment? Has this fellow you are talking about participated in any weapon practice sessions with you or your group?

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Dear Lady Firestryker:

You better believe he was spoken to!

The individual had heard me talking about a new helmet purchase (twelve gauge stainless) and he had said that "I'll bet I can put the first dent in it with my pole-arm!" He then made a point to come to the part of the battlefield I was at to make good his pledge.

(Did I mention this guy probably massed upwards of four-hundred fifty pounds of meat-on-the-hoof?)

To make a long, ugly story short,(as I was carried from the field on my scutum) the marshals pointed out to the individual (in short, succinct words so he'd understand the gravity of his situation) that such purposeful behavior was not acceptable, then proceeded to shred his authorization card into confetti.

And then my wife had words with him....

Needless to say, I no longer have any patience with that type of behavior.

Now, he may actually be a new person to this. I'm new to heavy combat, and frankly don't really have a "feel" for how much (or little) power I'm putting out. In my authorization bout, I swung MANY times, thought I had a good hit, and was told "light". With some instruction, I got a little better (and decided to take a lot of time off to make my own gear).

If he or she is new, pull them to the side (politely) and ask them some questions. If they are just a violent jerk -- REPORT THEM. You might be safe now, but others might not be.

The "dent the pretty stuff" is a common problem in the SCA. Rather annoying frankly.

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-Aaron Miaullis, SCAer with Authenticity Leanings (yes, it's not an oxymoron... :)maybe...)

What do others do? When you are going through a set sequence of moves, where the other guy knows what you will do next, do you glide your blade in an energy-dampening thrust away from yourself when you contact? Or do you strike with some force, relying on the safety of the sequence and on staying alert to the certainty that nothing workds perfectly? How do you handle it in demos, which is what I'm talking about, rather than actual fighting or sparring?

As stated above, don't fight the guy. So many times, even a fighter who has been fighting for years will still live by the same idea that hitting harder makes you a better fighter. It most certainly doesn't. Hitting accurately, with good timing, and defending yourself adequately makes you a good fighter. Purposely trying to dent someone's equipment or to do what we do unsafely makes you a menace and a hazard.

I wouldn't go so far as to kick him out unless he openly defies having excessive force and playing the game unsafely and is unwilling to change his behavior.

Think I'll go back to lurking now...

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2 weekends ago Jeff and I went to an Empire of Adria event because it was here in town, about 5 minutes from the shop.

One of the reasons we went was because they advertise that they fight with "real" swords. As it turned out, fighting with metal "swords" was about all they did.

Anyway, challenges are issued and Jeff gets 2 takers. The first one is the group's "king", who rushes Jeff in the opening clash and steps on his foot in such a way that the toenail of Jeff's big toe is folded back on itself, and the imprint of the fellow's thick lugged boot is stamped on the top of Jeff's shoe. The rest of the combat was relatively uneventful.

Second bout was with a hot stick who laid 3 very large creases in Jeff's barbuta, and seemed so aggressive and out of control that I was asking the marshals if what was going on was legal, and if Jeff's opponent had something to prove. Since the opponent wasn't wearing historical armour, shoes or anything, he would rush in, do some flurry of blows or whack Jeff soundly and run away.

Jeff -who fights on horseback and on foot all the time, armoured and unarmoured and who has never had more than a scrape to himself or his armour- walked away from these 2 bouts with a ripped off toenail and 3 large creases to his barbuta and one to his cuirass.

The point of the story is that those who do historical combat have different equipment, different training and a different attitude about the whole fighting thing than guys in these other groups, and someone could get hurt if the historically accoutered combatant is not prepared. Most of the other groups make historical compromises for "safety" that really only work if EVERYONE makes the same compromises. In this case, everyone though Jeff was stupid for fighting in turnshoes; none of the Adria people could see that the answer was not with wearing turnshoes, it was with the fact that one combatant was wearing turnshoes and the other thick hiking boots--if both had been wearing turnshoes nothing would have happened.

Same thing with the second bout--Jeff went into the combat thinking it was a battle of tactics and style, and was unprepared for the "out-of-control-dumptruck-careening-down-the-alley" approach to fighting. His opponent was there to land blows and ultimately win, not test his opponent's abilities. Since he was wearing light metal sporting equipment and thick soled boots he and Jeff were unequally matched.

As an observer, my comment is to take care when fighting anyone, in your own group or out. As Mark points out, fighters come from all different backgrounds, and come into a combat situation with many different expectations. Just because someone says they do "historical combat" doesn't mean that their expectations of "historical combat" are the same as yours.

Caveat Emptor!

Gwen

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Seriously though, I think this was one of the reasons for coming up with a standard. Maybe not as grandiose as the ARMET idea, but something regarding combat. Having a ref may not be a bad idea for individuals and even a smaller group of combatants.

I agree with Mark that groups should train their own.

It seems more and more, LH and RE groups are heading for the WMA seminars to learn historical technique. Learning safety, weapon control and deciding for themselves which "Master" best suits their personal needs or the needs of their group.

I think most of us here are concerned with style, technique, and the safety of our friends. Of course there will always be that competitive edge (no pun intended), but I don't think most here are looking to "crease" your cranium and if that is a participants goal because someone has a nice harness, then that person shouldn't be allowed on anyone's field.

"When doing demos, there are people who I would rather not have swinging a sword at me. The issue is, how to decline without looking like a snob and a jerk?"

In New Zealand we have a set of formal rules for interclub combat that every club or individual is obliged to follow if they want to participate in such activities.

One of the rules we have for interclub combat - be it a public demonstration or a private camp is a rule that says at a person may decline to fight anybody without having to give a reason. This provides an honourable 'out' if a person does not want to fight any particular group or members of a particular club.

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

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sorta keeping inline with the flow of this discussion. what kinda rules will be inplace at your MD event? i had some of my freinds interested in joining me up there for Stoudts. when i mentioned the "combat" to take place, they weren't too keen on the idea. we have too many paded pvc/sca-ers bludgening the tar out of each other down here and they want no part of it. will they have to fight? what are you setting up for this event? what rules of engagement? etc.

i guess that this could be posted on the other thread started by you concernig the event.

thanks,

daniel

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Db

Seriously, Mark & I are in the same group & I, for one, fully intend to ensure rules are established and enforced to ensure safety is assured during any combat. Neither me or my armor are going to get dented.

Also, I'd like to have a session or two at the event where we do activities such as Tahlhoffer & Fiore moves and Royal Armouries routines.

[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: Jeff Johnson ]

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