I want something that will fit into different groups, since I am at least 4 hours from the nearest active one, it appears. Looking at Embleton's Medieval Military Costume book, I like the idea of the German mercenary - specifically something like the guy on pp 60-61.

A couple of questions:
Would a german mercenary possibly show up in a variety of locations across Europe - in the Red Company setting, for instace?

Two specific weapon questions:

I have an Arms and Armor medieval dagger
(http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item058.html)
- I have read that a Rondell or other type might be more appropriate, but would this one be acceptable?

Also, I have a German sword from Lutel that they date at 1520. I'm going for the same general period that many groups participating here are doing - around 1480 ish - anyone have any idea if my sword is ok for this? i'm pretty sure the Writhen type pommel appeard by the mid 15th century. The blade should probably be an Oakeshott XVIII for this period, but it is more like a slender XIII, but that is probably ok, as they made a reapearence around this point, I think.
(see http://www.lutel.cz/15009_15010_15011.htm - it is 15010).

Some folks also develop their personas by going so far as to figure out what their profession was before they took up arms, the "country" they were from and possibly even a town. Then build their kit around it.

A German persona would fit just fine. Charles the Bold's army was multinational. There were even some Swiss amongst his people.

I will let the armour and weapons folks answer the other points.

Cheers,

Jenn

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With respect to your "persona", how specific you choose to adopt will depend on who you relate to (industry, religion, neighbors, business dealings, etc.) Medieval Germany had a very diverse history. If you are looking to be a generic German Mercenary, then it simply depends on who you are theoretically fighting for. Example, if comparing to being involved with Red Company, then you would have need to be hired by someone actively engaged in the affairs of England. And which side are you supporting? Then look at the overall politics of Germany and France to choose what area you come from and what decade. It depends on how detailed you want to be. Are you 1420's? 1450's? 1470's? 1490's? These are all very different both technologically and politically.

Pending how detailed you want to go... Are you from the lowlands? (northern/northwestern Germany?), Western Germany (Cologne region with heavy mining industry and very religiously connected), southwestern Germany (issues with S.France and pre-early Switzerland, totally Catholic), or (southeastern Germany which is Bavaria which was more dealing with Hapsburgs/Austria).

The detail concern that I might have is with the type of blade (and maybe it's just me). Lutel makes a generic blade for many of it's swords as a base model and changes the guards and pommel around to create it's model variations. 15010 is presented with a wider blade with a fuller groove. In looking at examples of the period, the combination of the guard and pommel (style) would normally be combined with a diamond cross sectioned blade and not a flat one with a fuller. Again, this pommel being more German or Bohemian in origen with a southern Europe cross guard. The flat blade, on the other hand, was more common to the north in the lowlands (Denmark, Netherlands or even England). So the combination of the parts, while not impossible, strikes me as a bit improbable.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is not a common person's sword. (Particularly the pommel.) So you would have paid a fortune for it, which, as a mercenary, would you have made enough to have this?, or having stolen it from an opposing officer in battle?

Again, all of the sword classifications (especially dating) are not always inclusive. However, they are based on examples of the period.

Sword designs - always a fascinating study.

As far as the sword goes - I had not thought about how expensive it might be. Perhaps I took it from an officer and that is one of the reasons I am no longer in Germany - hmm.

The guard ends are round, but flat on the ends with 'flower' designs.

The fullered flatter blades did make a comeback in the late 15th century according to Oakeshott. The sword is fairly similar (in both furniture and blade) to the one done by Arms&Armor ( at http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item167.html ). I'm pretty sure that one is closely modelled on a historical German (Bohemian?) sword form the end of the 15th century. The other thing I wonder about a bit is that the Lutel sword has a partial wire wrap (the 3 inches or so close to the pommel).
Wonder if I should move my sword discussions over to the arms and armor part of the forum?

Friedrich said the main points about the sword; the main point is, whether you want to portray the "extraordinary" or rather the "usual" - in the second case the sword would be far to new in design (even to us in south Germany with many contacts to Italy and Bohemia). So I´d rather go for one with an straight guard and a more far spread pommel (disc for example).

And I think, the mostly the same can be said according to the dagger: it´s not outright wrong, but (as you remarked), the rondel dagger (or knife) was more common, as was the bollock dagger (again - or knife). What you also could carry (as a tool or secondary weapon), is a "rugger" or "bauernwehr" (sorry, I don´t have a english term for this, translated it would be something like "peasant´s weapon"). This would be an big and quite heavy single edged knife with a slightly curved handle (again, like a knife and not a dagger), almost no guard (except for a shell-like piece on the outer side) and a length varying from 30 to almost 60cm; the bladeform can also vary from a narrow triangular one with a sharp point to a cleaver like blade.
Here two examples of archaeological finds:
and
and here is a replica made for us:

As far as In know this type of weapon was far spread in southern Germany, though I don´t know if it´s typically German or if it was used in other countries.

Ok, my 2 cents, and please excuse my English

You guys are probably right - too bad - it is such a pretty sword. I hope to get a replica of the Henry V sword. It is a short diamond section (Type XVIII) blade with a round pommel - is there any problem with a short sword (27 or 28 inch blade, I believe) rather than a hand and a half sword for a mercenary type. It might actually make a lot of sense as a back up weapon to a polearm.

I have done a bit of searching for books and can't find much - anyone have some references on 15th century Germany in English?

If you're doing a chap with a polearm it's likely you'd have a short sword or long knife for cback-up, but I'd think the Henry V sword is still a bit fancy for your station. Especially with that decorative bit in the pommel. If you are determined to buy A&A - look at the French sword or even the Oakeshot.

Tomasz - "Sax"-y knife! Who made it?

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Gordon, to add to what has been said, I would just say that the sword you get should be fairly low on your priority list for your kit, your basic clothing, turnshoes and the like being at the very top - without the basic goodies, it is hard to play. Most groups have spare weapons and harness, but spare clothing is a bit thin on the ground (people tend to collect the "shiny bits", but often only have one set of clothes).

Your desired portrayal and his 'station' needs to be well thought out, and you should go with a portrayal you can afford to pull off believably - what seperates good reenactment and actual LH from the flotsam and jetson of the field is a well thought out and complete portrayal. Nothing looks worse than the fellow who has the armour of a prince, but the clothing and equipage of a pauper - worse yet, a badly done go at such an armour. Were I starting out, and I was on a limited budget, I would rather good clothing and basic accessories, and have a hand sewn padded jack made of linen, and a raised skullcap with simple weaponry of painstaking authenticity rather than a mediocre job of a full armour - this is just a basic principle I would choose to follow, but take it from a fellow who wants very much to "do it right", but unawares spent thousands of dollars on a barely acceptable harness for what I choose to do, and then having to painfully spend thousands more to correct my earlier mistake.

Everything needs to "fit" together logicaly, but do not despair, you can have very nice kit, from clothing to sword and other accoutrements - just set your sight on something short of Sigismund of Tyrols harness.

Regarding the Specific German mercenary photographs in question - I think it is a very good guideline for a basic idea, but with these caveats - always look to primary source material - I would recommend the martial plates from "Das Mittlealteres Hausbuch" - specificaly the plates of an army on the March, the Imperial camp, and "The Children of Mars" to get a view of what normal soldiers of the origin you specify most likely looked like in their kits (other sources as well, but this should be fairly available as a starting point, being printed in a number of books).

In fact, they look very much like the photographs you are looking at.

Concerning weapons - get the principle tool of your trade first, and worry about a sword later - spend the dosh on a good reproduction of a crossbow or halberd - 'swordsmen' such as custillors were cavalry, and nothing looks sillier than a dismounted cavalryman with nary a horse in sight, so you need something in addition to a sword, that would be your principle weapon on the battlefield.

The cuirasse and sallet is a good combination - more usually for infantrymen, these were 'fussknechtbrust' or 'cuirasse fanta da pieda' - in essence breastplate and faulds (and occassionally tassets) without backplates, with a set of cross straps and a waistbelt holding it in place. These were often worn over mail haubergorns, or even a padded jack - the one area this reconstructio suffers from (as do most 15th century portrayals) is a lack of mail visible in the photograph. Commonly sees in art of the era, in inventories, and even surviving are mail sleeves, standards, and skirts or mail shorts on infantrymen. Much like padded jacks and brigandines, mail - even the supplemental bits I mention are sorely lacking in reenactment circles. Notice the mail in the Gerry Embleton book - not everyone can afford good rivited mail, but even butted or washer mail will do, so long as the diameter of the rings, the hang of the weave, and the correct 'texture' and colour' of the mail are present.

Regarding the sword - actually, the Henry V isn't bad as it is well made, but plain, and a bit dated by 1470-80, so believable in the hands of a professional non-noble soldier. As I recal, it is a one handeed sword, and woul;d work well with a buckler - check out Flemish miniatures of the era - infantrymen can be seen with everything from bastard swords (indeed, they are required of the mounted archers in Charles the Bolds ordinances), to single hand swords of classic late medieval form, to backswords and falchions. In my opinion, the backswords, falchions, and messers of the Medieval world are far too under-represented in reenactment, and the 'classic' swords equally over-represented. People tend to want swords fit for a Duke, and I can understand this compulsion, but some very nice swords (even fine ones) can be had in these other catagories).

I think your idea of a 'German Mercenary' as an independant reenactor is an excellent one, as they seem to have been found in nearly any army of the Later Middle Ages - most certainly in Burgundian service (one left his memoires, although he was of higher station than a footsoldier). It should allow you to mesh reasonably well with the other groups.

I hope this helps, and is encouraging to you.

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I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed here - but thanks everyone.

Not completely sure this is the right persona to start with (I'm guessing there are better reasons to select one than that I thought the picture looked cool) - but it will be my woking model for now, I guess.

I want something that I could make believable pretty soon, but be able to add to for awhile.

Perhaps it would be possible to start with a civilian persona where most of the basic kit could be reused in a military one later after I had gathered the minimal armor/weapons together.

Nothing to get discouraged about - wether military or civilian impression, the basic clothing is the key. A halberdier impression is much more affordable than a crossbowman BTW - decent crossbows cost as much as decent reenactment longarms. I'm still collecting my kit - it is an ongoing process.

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As have others, I'm going to list the stuff I have and/or know I will need and then ask what I have missed and try to get an idea of what should be next.

I have

Turnshoes from HE
( also linen 14th century Braies and Chausses, but these just won't do - right?)

Utility knife (A&A)
Dagger (A&A - might work - might not need it anyway)

A collection of swords from a 13th century plain Type XII to the Lutel fancy one, one of these will work, I hope for a backup weapon

Doublet (hip length, in black wool, lined with natural color linen) Actually, don't have it yet - my mother in law is making it.

I will need:

1: Clothes and sundry
Shirt(s)
15th century hose
15th century braies
belt and pouch
hat and/or hood
(plan to order all these from HE)

2: Pike/Halberd/Bill
I could use some help here - specific sugestions? I have looked at the Pole Axe and English and Italian Bills at Arms&Armor - but I'm not sure what is most appropriate or where else to look.

3: Armor

I need: (in order of how soon I plan to get it)
Buckler
Mail shirt
Helm (sallet ?)
Breast plate
Gauntlets (then I can get rid of the buckler?)

Do I also need a mail collar or coif?
I tried to order this in order of most important to have - but would appreciate comments.

I think you should specify first, which part of Germany your persona is most influenced by, because this will, at least to a part, show in his attire/ armour/choice of weapons, for example the doublets for us here in Regensburg (SE Germany) are strongly influenced by italian fashion, the SW-fashion would be rather burgundian in style.

A few remarks especially to arms & armour: I cannot say much abour northern parts, but here in the south the most favoured weapon was a halberd with many styles existing, the italian bill (runca) would also appear, whereas the english was afaik not-existent. Try this for a few examples: [URL=http://www.bildindex.de/rx/apsisa.dll/registerinhaltorte?sid={69B8DE02-8020-4E16-BF22-5B4A5183AF6B}&cnt=6476&rid=1&count=50&aid=*&query=+regorte01%3A'M*'%20+regorte01! nchen|660475"%20+regorte02!"Sammlungen|660707"%20+regorte03!"%C3%96ffentliche%20Sammlungen|660708"%20+regorte04!"Bayerisches%20Nationalmuseum|660756"%20+regorte05!"Kunstgewerbe|660 789"%20+regorte06!"Werkzeug,%20Waffen%20und%20R%C3%BCstungen|660869"%20%20+regorte07!"Hieb-%20und%20Stichwaffen|660871"&no=1]Halmbards from Munich Nationalmuseum[/URL] try the second and third row for different types.

And I would leave out the buckler since there are just very few evidences of it being used in Germany in military settings (thought it appears in many fencing manuals). On the other hand you can very often find gauntlets and a kettle hat as the basic armour for city levies in the city laws.
For the body armour you can choose what you want, just remember that the more armour you have the wealthier your persona is likely to be and the better his civil attire /accessoires should be. For the beginning a helmet (maybe with a bevor), a halberd, a dagger and maybe gauntlets are more than enough.

Bye,
Tomasz

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Thanks, but I can't get that link to resolve - my browser just keeps spinning.

And yes, I need to do some research about exactly where in Germany- I may have to try to dust of my very rusty German reading skills - I have done searching on Amazon and at the local library and have not found much promising in English.

You would put helment and guantlets above the mail?

What is a halberd? Axe on a pole? (I picture those very long bladed axes I saw in some movie somewhere...)

Thanks.

It actually starts with the end of Roman influence leading to the coronation of Charles the Great (800AD). But it is a very slow, dry reader...

Towards the end of the 15thC, major princes ruled Germany along with Bishoprics leading to the accension of Maximillian at the end of the century.

From a modern cost perspective, I would go with the more common open backed basic breastplate over the mail shirt. And save your precious income for other supporting small items. (IE eating utensils, pouches, etc.)

Gruß Gött!

Very simplified, yes, a halberd is an axe on a long stick with a spike on top to poke the other guy ;-). I´ll try to fix the link or to post some examples of german halberds tomorrow.

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So here are a few 15th cent. german halberds (except the obvious war-sickle), with the second and fourth from the left being the mostly used types in the 1460-1480ies.

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German Emperors for 15thC

1400 King Wenceslas removed from throne by electors on account of his incapacity
1400-1410 Ruprecht von der Pfalz (Wittelsbach)
1410-1411 Jobst von Mähren
1411-1437 Sigismund von Luxemburg (Roman Emperor)

Change of power to Hapsburg's (Austria)
1438-1439 Albrecht II
1440-1493 Friedrich III (Roman Emperor)
1493-1519 Maximilian I (Roman Emperor w/o coronation through the pope)

Some other dates of interest:
1402 Foundation of Würzburg University
1417 Hohenzollern Frederick I, burgrave of Nuremberg became elector of Brandenburg
1467-1477 Charles the Bold reigns as Duke of Burgundy until his death by the Swiss.
1467-1508 Albrecht the Wise reunited Duchy of Bavaria.
1472 Foundation of Ingolstadt University
1493 Peasant's uprising on the upper Rhine
1495 Diet of Worms - Proclamation "Eternal Peace"
1499 Switzerland broke away from the empire
1517 Martin Luther proclaimed his 95 theses.

Some good internet resources (in english) listing the milestones of Germany are available.

German Kings http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/streetgerman/koenige.html

Germany History Milesones http://www.germany-info.org/newcontent/ff/ff_6d.html

Bavarian History http://www.bayern.de/BayernInfo/geschichteE.html

Swabian History Overview http://art1.candor.com/barbarian/suevi.htm
http://www-theory.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~pleiner/schwabhist.html[/URL]

Hi Tomasz, I was wondering if you could reduce the size of the image you posted to about 550 pixels wide or split the image in half. This will keep the web page from running the text off the edge.

Thanks!

Jenn

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Lutel Poll Weapons

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Funny, I had seen this from the other thread going just before you posted it here.

So Tomasz, the Lutel 20017?

Thanks guys!

If I'm going to order this, I might as well get a dagger that is more appropriate ordered at the same time.
10019 from their Daggers page looks nice?

The one I have right now is here: http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item058.html
Is the Lutel one (or one of their other ones)
enough 'better' in the more authentic for this persona sense to justify another dagger purchase (ok, I know you can't answer that for me, but if it were you?)

Thanks for all the input guys - this has been very helpful.

What if I'm from Plzen in Bohemia. (In honor of my favorite beer )

Does that change much that you have already said?

Gordon: 20017 is fine, the others are ok as well (20015, 20016). If you choose a bohemian persona, it´ll change a little in your clothing and armour, for ex. the most common helmet there was the bohemian kettle hat (wide brim and a heavy ridge); for the late 15th cent. the weapons were mostly similar those used in southern Germany. The best of all would be, if you could find a picture/ statue of a mercenary/soldier from Plzen from the time you want and just recreate it.

Friedrich: the pictures show weapons that were on display in the Dresden city museum - were because they were taken in the 1920ies. I don´t know how much of the collection survived the bombing and 40 years of communism. I´ve taken the pics from Bildindex: go to "Orte" then "D", "Dresden", "Sammlungen I", "Historisches Museum", "Kunstgewerbe", "Waffen", "Stangenwaffen und Äxte" , there are some more.

Jeff, how much do the Lutel-pieces weigh? How are they to handle?

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Example. I portray a couple of roles from Swabia specifically from the Singen/Konstanz region. This is right on the Swiss border with whom we traded and occassionally fought (due to politics and taxation). Also bordering Swabia is Burgundy ruled by Charles the Bold in his compaign of expansion and his conflicts with the Swiss. Wanting to look for (financial opportunity, wanting to improve my social status, I hated my father so I left home, I was bored and was a born trouble maker, I was unhappy with the regional Catholic church......) whatever the reason(s), I joined Charles's army hence there I am which could justify (due to his various supporting other conflicts in England), I might even end up there someday...

Point being, that I have a developed background and then a reason for having travelled somewhere else. The question becomes, if you decide to be from Bohemia, are you wearing appropriate clothing? What foods are different for you? Why did you travel to where you are?