I am wearing a steel salade with a hand-stitched leather doublet, with cast brass buttons set with carnelian. The braies, St. Louis shirt, coif, woolen hosen, kidney pouch, arrow bag, and bow cover are Black Swan's. The dagger is a Christopher Poore original, and the buckler is his as well. The sword is a del Tin. The bow is a 55 lb. hickory-backed lemonwood, shelf-less with horn nocks. The arrows are goosefeather-fletched, the two swallow-tails hand-forged in England, and the bodkins in the bag Historic Arms. The canteen is Panther Primitives, and the boots are MRL.
How would the various different groups represented here feel about this particular portrayal? Criticisms, comments?
More pictures can be found here:
http://monsieurgeoffrey.faithweb.com/photo5.html

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Jsmart, no doubt he will be wearing a brigandine as per the Ordinances - once he gets his brigandine nails. The other option is a ten layered linen jack and haubergorn.

One question, based on my own ignorance regarding clothing detail. Do you have a reference for a leather doublet? I saw a picture of a panther primitives costrel the other day, and I thought it was spiff. Were you a Wolfe Argent member, I would try to get you into turnshoes inside a year. Other than that, I'd say pretty darned good.I'd gladly field you as a recruit.

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Thank you very much. The doublet was 3 years in the making!

"Are you an Englisher "freelancing" for Charles?"

I haven't a clue. Our group has decided to take on the Burgundian lance, and I'm trying to fit in. So far we have a Burgundian knight, two mounted crossbows, and a Swiss pikeman. (Plus another equally confused mounted man-at-arms). I thought the foot soldier/long bowman would be a nice "lightly armed" persona to put me in a position to handle the horses on the ground. At a maximum, we have 2 extra w/o horses, unless Tom brings all his, then everyone is mounted.

"what will you be doing for chest protection-
a Brig, Jack, Maile, or that wonderous breastplate you have?"

As little as possible.

"How does that Lemonwood bow shoot? I have always read what a wonderful wood that is to tiller into a bow."

It shoots like a dream, although I am really out of practice and have trouble with 55lb. They sold our park's archery range (made for the Pan Am games), to political cronies.

"How do those boots do to march in? they look great.. toss in your haversack, blanket,and you're off!"

The boots wear great for walking or riding, though they are not turnshoes. I'm not sure what the haversack is supposed to look like. I have one, but it has my coat of arms painted on it. I don't know how appropriate that is. It's a blue canvas Panther Primitives. Got the wool blanket, though!

Chef:

"One question, based on my own ignorance regarding clothing detail. Do you have a reference for a leather doublet?"

No, It just seemed like a good idea. I used one of those medieval patterns you see for sale at SCA merchants which called for one type of fabric for the vest and one for the sleeves. I thought it would make a substantial arming doublet, but it came out so pretty I had to put fancy buttons on it! Anyway, that's why I am throwing this out for your comments. Would a poorer footsoldier wear something like this, or do I go to plan 'B'? (Halbard, chain maille shirt, articulated breastplate, full mitten gauntlets, no freedom of movement.)

"Were you a Wolfe Argent member, I would try to get you into turnshoes inside a year."

I've made a 9th C. pair, I have the moosehide for a 11th C. pair, once it is completed then I'll attempt a 14th or 15th C. pair, which look far more difficult.

"Other than that, I'd say pretty darned good.I'd gladly field you as a recruit."

Thanks, Chef, coming from you that is a complement.

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ]

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another question about the boots though... do yours seam to ride down with wear? a buddy has the same pair which allways slid down afer walking in them after a bit, espeacially in the left? maybe the right, because it was made with a thinner piece of hide. he ended up using straps that he would tie at his ankle and right below his knee in order to keep them from sliding all about. so i'm curious if you have also experience the same problem.

anyways, nice job with your kit. now if only we could feild say another hundred or so like you... you're still working on that Bob?

have fun,

daniel

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Db

Yes, I have the same problem and solution. I have to tie a leather thong around the calf below the knee, and the spurs take care of the ankles. I left the spurs off, as I was doing a footsoldier impression, but I have some of Raymond's Quiet Press 15th C. spurs, which I believe are Talbot's originally.

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Correct or not, I would give my right arm for a pair of those boots. Where did you get them? Or did you make them? As I Rub my hands together and start stalking my leatherworking friends

Brenna

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well hell, if i have to bribe you with leather to come down to south FL, so be it!

now back to the regularly scheaduled thread....

yes my buddy used spurs in the beggining but we got tired of his John Wayne impersenations and suggested just plain straps. i forgot to mention to be carefull with the heels they wore out exceptionally quick on his right up into the heel cup before he resoled them.

where did you get your bow by the way?

have fun,

daniel

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Db

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I'll check Museum Replicas, I really need a high pair of good riding boots for some (don't laugh, they are paying me well) LARP stuff I have been asked to add some atmosphere to with my horse later this year.
(Hey at least they don't even try to say anything about "period", they KNOW they are playing at fantasy!)

I have an Osage Orange bow left over from my time as a buckskinner. I paid about $100 for it and it's very nice for shooting. Of course Osage Orange is NOT right for most portrayals unless your a French Voyageur, but they are wonderful bows.

Brenna

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Jenn

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daniel

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Db

1. Braises : Can't see (thankfully) but linen is perfect. In England they were called Breeches

2. Hose : Again these look fine but the key elements are hidden by the boots and jacket. Idealy they should reach to the hip and have a series of paris of point holes at the top edge. 8 pairs is a reasonable average

3. Doublet : I can't see the doublet (BTW it's a personal thing but a Pourpoint is simply French for Doublet (at least to the level ANYONE cn differentiate today), based on that I am presuming that you don't have one. This is a key garment for any C15th suit of clothes. Without it you will neither move nor be able to wear the outer garments corectly. Hose pointed to a doublet change the wy you move/stand ... it's more like wearing a romper suit / boiler suit than trousers (pants) and a shirt. The weight is on the shoulders more than the hips.

If you do make a doublet go for wool. Simple 4 panel design for the body with long sleeves. Point the doublet closed by preference, esp. at the throat as it allows a loosening as required. The key stylistic thing about mid-C15th doublets is that they are close fitting and have a distinctive V backed collar which standsup close to the neck.

Jacket: (what you refer to as a doublet) It's not a style that I can immediately think of a period equivilant. I can't see the cllar well enough to see how that looks, esp from the back. Buttons were used but at the 'arcer' degree I'd expect them to be pewter (c15th buttons are very distinctive, they have the 'button end' with a shaft at the back which stitches to the cloth (on the edge typically) ... very much a metal version of the cloth buttons so common in the c14th and used into the C15th.
The brass buttons seem odd, esp. if inlaid?

Personally I'd recommend a cloth gown rather than leather but I'm sure I ca find refs to leather if I look hard enough.

Salet : You'd be better with a proper padded lining rather than a cloth coif. Additionally by C.1470 coifs were not very fashionable, caps and hats predominate. There is a style of cap with ties as per the coif, but typically this was worn 'deerstalker' style with the ends tied on the top of the cap. Probably made from heavily felted wool cloth or possibly one of the earliest common knitted items (but the felting would cover the knitting appearance)

The salet itself looks unusual for c.1470, I haven't looked at them for a while but it feels more a modern reconstruction design than a truely original one.
The flared bottom seems odd, especially for an archer. I'd aim for a smaller salet which has more shape in the bowl and is higher to the ear.

Boots : you've already mentioned these aren't turnshoes. Also it's hard to tell but these don't appear to have the characteristic fold of thi style of C15th boot. basically the fit is achieved by excess leather at the ankle be folded and buckled/hooked from top of the foot to just below the knee., giving a triangular fold.
Also I'd expect full riding boots to reach a bit higher up the thigh.

Armour: As an archer, whether English of Burgundian you should have some. Ideally a Jack (20+ layers of linen) or Brigandine.

Hope this is OK. If you've any questions please feel free to ask. The idea is to help improve not to denegrate. If I did a review of my kit I'd be just as (probably more) critical.

What I asked for.

"Idealy they should reach to the hip and have a series of paris of point holes at the top edge."

Yep.

"3. Doublet : I can't see the doublet (based on that I am presuming that you don't have one."

No, as I mentioned, I do not. I am going to attempt one based on the leather "jacket" pattern, using only the 4 body pieces and the collar. I assume by a 'V' we are referring to the throat?

"If you do make a doublet go for wool. Simple 4 panel design for the body with long sleeves."

Are long sleeves really necessary? In Embleton & Howe the man dressing has one with long sleeves far beyond my capabilities.

"The key stylistic thing about mid-C15th doublets is that they are close fitting and have a distinctive V backed collar which standsup close to the neck."

"Buttons were used but at the 'arcer' degree I'd expect them to be pewter (c15th buttons are very distinctive, they have the 'button end' with a shaft at the back which stitches to the cloth (on the edge typically) ... very much a metal version of the cloth buttons so common in the c14th and used into the C15th. The brass buttons seem odd, esp. if inlaid?"

I bought those on the web. I'll post the location as it has a great picture when I remember where.

"Salet : You'd be better with a proper padded lining rather than a cloth coif."

I'm getting to that. I have a lining and suspension ready to assemble, I just need to attach the buckle. And rivet it on, after I drill out the other rivets.

"The salet itself looks unusual for c.1470, I haven't looked at them for a while but it feels more a modern reconstruction design than a truely original one."

Nope, earlier period. Henry V & VI. 1420 to 1450. See the Osprey Henry V and the Conquest of France 1416-53. It's copied from the billman and dated 1450, but I've seen pictures much earlier that resembled it.

"Boots : you've already mentioned these aren't turnshoes."

To be improved upon.

"Armour: As an archer, whether English of Burgundian you should have some. Ideally a Jack (20+ layers of linen) or Brigandine."

I think I'll start a thread on this in a week or two in Arms & Armour.

"Hope this is OK. If you've any questions please feel free to ask. The idea is to help improve not to denegrate."

Absolutely. I guess I should elaborate, though. I'm looking to wear as little armour as possible in order to ground-handle horses for the guys in full-plate when it is my turn on the ground. I am hoping to come up with a persona giving me this option. If not an archer, a halbardier? Ive got this option:

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Second. I'll have to go and look in the Osprey books but be wary of the plates as they are artistis representations. Admittedly Graham Turner is about as good as you're going to get but I'd recommend looking at some real salets rather than (even period) illustrations.

Third, persona.
Now I'm stepping beyond my area of knowledge here when we get to the Burgundian Ordnances but be wary of assuming that picking up a bill/glaive/halbard mean less armour!
I can't recall how the Burgundian Ordinances work in this respect but (again not my area really) but I think the French Lance has some allowance for this menial handler role separate from the combatant.
In England you'd be an archer, at least in name. That means you'd be expected to have a Salet and a Jack. Whether you'd be wearing the Jack whilst handling the horses is questionable, but you'd probably not be wering a salet either. Basically both or neither.

Fourth: Jacks: I don't look at the Arms & Armour forum (what's the url) but you'l probably find as good info here as anywhere ... and probably already listed in old posts.

Fifth: Doublet: No the V is at the back of the neck. Basically the collar is made of two long triangles. These stitch together at centre back and along a V cut into the back quarters of the doublet such that the bottom of the collar in centre back is between the top of the shoulder baldes. As the collar laps around over the shoulder it decreases in overall height of cloth, but with the top edge of the collar staying level. By the shoulder and round to the front it is about 1"-2" high.
The easiest way to create the V is to look at the front and back of a modern pattern. You'll see that the back body panels have less removed for the neck than the front. If you make the front & back the same you end up with a V (or U) at the back.
The beauty of this is that this is where you're shoulder start to roll over. Thus the body panels curve forward over you're shoulders whilst the doublet collar stands up straight (well actually it leans towards the neck so it fits snugly).

I'd guess that the Embleton & Howe illsutartion has the shoty puffed sleeves. You don't need them, unless you intend to make a Rene of Anjou style Gown in which case you will. Doublets were made with both plain and puffed sleeves.

As a handler maybe you should have a look at the illustrations of the men leading the Judges and Heralds horses in Rene of Anjou's Bokk of the Tournament. The Jackets they are wearing is what I'd recommend.

Also Livery ... please please don't by individual liveries. Get you're group to decide on the livery and its style. Then buy the cloth in one go so it can be issued. Higher status individuals should have better quality cloth. Use simple cloth badges for the common soldiers

If you are an archer you would not have a coat of arms on you, not even your Lords. You would wear his badge. It is different ... I can explain if necessary.

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If you are an archer you would not have a coat of arms on you, not even your Lords. You would wear his badge. It is different ... I can explain if necessary.

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My understanding is that an individual's device (coat of arms) was only properly displayed if the individual was actually present. Therefore, only the individual bearing that device would wear it as a surcoat/livery etc. All others associated with that noble would carry the badge of the noble. (And some of the great English nobles has several badges too)

Is that correct?
Brenna

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Similarly the banner would bear the personal arms indicating the presence of the nobleman.

In contrast noblemans retainers etc. would wear their lords cognisance/badge/device/sign, a simpler symbol (eg. the White Rose or falcon & feterlock ... or the Cross of St George) to indicate the association.

Similarly the badge was what mattered on the Standard which was the focal point for the unit.

Interestingly even noblemen wore their superious Livery & badge when retained by them. Hence you see Sir John Howard with a St George livery, a Warwick and a Clarence Livery (if I recall correctly)

What this was worn on didn't really matter too much. Livery issued clothing could be standardised to set colours but it didn't have to be and often wasn't.

However as with all people having your men look flash is good for the image ... so equipping your men 'uniformly' is a plus.
You see the same thing in Livery Gilds in London where they all try to have the same colour (which varied year on year) ... but didn't always get it right.

That's why I'd not expect to see personal coats of arms on anything other than the property or person of a nobleman, and a servant is not property.

Go to dress accessories, item D D-1 for the brass buttons I used.

As far as the tabards go, on page 105 of Embleton & Howe, handgunners returning to Burgundian camp near Lausanne, 1476, and again on page 99 and 78, they are all wearing blue/white with gold trim and a red 'X'. This was what I had in mind for our mounted crossbowmen and unmounted pikemen and bowmen. Our one mounted 'knight' was going to wear full plate as in page 33. I 'assume" he wouldn't wear livery, or would he? I know when it is my turn to ride as a 'man-at-arms', I was going to wear the tabard, as I am a retainer not a nobleman. Comments?

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ]

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made with a thinner piece of hide. he ended up using straps that he would tie at his ankle and right below his knee in order to keep them from sliding all about.

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These be "Garters".

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As far as the tabards go, on page 105 of Embleton & Howe, handgunners returning to Burgundian camp near Lausanne, 1476, and again on page 99 and 78, they are all wearing blue/white with gold trim and a red 'X'. This was what I had in mind for our mounted crossbowmen and unmounted pikemen and bowmen.

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Livery. I like that particular color combo too.

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Our one mounted 'knight' was going to wear full plate as in page 33. I 'assume" he wouldn't wear livery, or would he?

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Sure he would. Even if he's the Leader of your merry band, he'd wear livery just like the rest of the men. The question is, does he have his own livery, or that of the person to whom he has sworn service? THAT is what you need to determine. And it depends on the nature of the service and his class. Consider a cloth cover for the breastplate, paint, or something on the helm.

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I know when it is my turn to ride as a 'man-at-arms', I was going to wear the tabard, as I am a retainer not a nobleman. Comments?

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Also depends. You ought to be wearing some identifying mark(s), either that of your master, or the group with which your master is in service (preferably both). Otherwise, in the first combat you enter, you are subject to friendly fire. THAT is why Livery came to be, and should be a factor in chosing the means of displaying the livery colors to make sure you don't get whacked by your friends,

An easy way to wear livery of the person to whom your group's master has sworn fealty is a sash or "Bend" in the larger group's colors and possibly device. If you're a traitorous sort, issue a couple of spare sashes in alternate color's.

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Sure he would. Even if he's the Leader of your merry band, he'd wear livery just like the rest of the men. The question is, does he have his own livery, or that of the person to whom he has sworn service? THAT is what you need to determine. And it depends on the nature of the service and his class. Consider a cloth cover for the breastplate, paint, or something on the helm.

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would it be appropriate for ALL of us to wear the same tabard, from knight to archer? Perhaps a lance for pay rather than for loyalty?

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Yes, but how will you all fit into one livery Coat?

You should all be as uniform as possible. Unless you want the richer fellows i.e. captain to have better quality stuff and nice embroidery in the badges.

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Originally posted by Jeff Johnson:
Unless you want the richer fellows i.e. captain to have better quality stuff and nice embroidery in the badges.

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Not only do you want this, you need it if you are going to give any impresion of social ranking.
In England there is plenty of evidence for a fairly strict hierarchy of cloths in terms of Livery issue. This is NOT a Sumpturay Law thing, it is how the cloth was issud so don't let people try and dismiss you with that only nutshell.

Where it gets complex is that the higher up the social ladder your master is, the quality/type of cloth is correspondingly raised, however the internal ranking still exists ... if you look at the Household Accounts for Edward IV you'll see Velvet, Damask, Satin and Wool. Similarly the costs of the badges issued for these cloth (& for jacket) livery issues vary as dos the size.

So would it be appropriate for all ranks to have the same jacket, no.
Would it be appropriate to all have jackts of similar type (colour/badge) yes. but the quality & cut should match the status of the wearer. Similarly the colours would vary because of the inevitable variation in the quality of dyestuffs used on cetain cloths as well as the impact of these dyes on the cloths themselves. Hence you see Edward IV issuing blue and purple silk cloth, as opposed to blue & murrey wool.

Burgundy is however a different place, but one where similar social ranking was, at least, as endemic.

However be wary of assuming all Burgundians wore Blue & White. Too much attention has been given to the jacket colours and too little to the badge, at least that is my opinion. When chroniclers talk about identifying people they refer to the badge, the symbol of the man not the colours.

As regards cloth Bends. There is evidence for them in Burgundy ... but this is still an area of research. If anyone has any good sources I'd be very interested to hear about them.

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Originally posted by Seigneur de Leon:
The URL for the buttons:
http://store.argentcompany.org/

Go to dress accessories, item D D-1 for the brass buttons I used.

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Thanks for the link.
Why oh why do people do this?
They take a medieval piece of tat and make a nice version of it!

As I suspected the original was pewter and the 'gem' was glass. Even so I'd be surprised to find it on a garment of this sort/worn by a common archer.

However, the shape is what I was on about. And they're better than plenty of others I've seen that's for sure.

An update on the halberdier - I am wearing a "generic" non-pointed-toed ankle-high turnshoe, wool hosen, linen braies, shirt, woolen doublet, and with a breast/back, gorget, gothic pauldrons and gauntlets as well as Chef's old barbute.
I am working on getting a more 15th C. turnshoe made, but sometimes they just turn out the way they turn out.
The doublet has no sleeves - I neither had the time to sew them on, plus I screwed up and only have enough wool left over for one consistent sleeve. I could go sleeveless, switch materials, or have one made of three pieces like a repair, if I can't get more.
My intention is to have a woolen jacket over the doublet but under the breastplate, but as of now, I have no pattern or idea how to go about it. Suggestions?
From the earlier pictures you can see the sword, buckler, dagger & canteen, I left them out because I needed freedom to move in this situation.

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