We're developing some chest hardware and hope you'll be able to assist us with designs.

What we're finding is period (14th/15thC) chests come in 2 basic sizes- small and very large. The small ones are coffer size with either a handle on the top or small handles on either side.

The big ones are too big for one person to carry and tend to have a ring and loop arrangement that allows a pole to be inserted in the handle for carrying. The "armour chest" in the Burrell Collection in Glasgow has this arrangement:

Rings with staples can also be mounted in widely spaced pairs on the front and back of large chests. With poles inserted in the rings, the chest can then be carried like a litter.

We're not having much luck finding the sort of mid-sized chests most modern reenactors favor. Small coffer handles are too small for these mid sized chests, and the pole rings are a bit large for them.

Although we plan to produce the ring and pole type handles, we're hoping to find evidence for a more modern chest type handle that projects out from the side of a mid sized chest. We're not having much luck, and don't want to go off on a flight of fancy, as all the other hardware (hinges, lock, nails) we've prototyped so far are based on period originals.

If anyone can post or send images of chest hardware of this type you'd like to see manufactured and is documentable, we'd be very grateful for the information. As added incentive, we'll be happy to send you a set of handles free of charge, if we use the design you submit. (Handle must be 14th /15th C. Source must be cited)

Thanks!

The problem you are having is that moderate sized chests pretty much didn't survive, if many existed at all. Standards and other normal moving chests occassionally got left in Churches (The Beaufort chest, and the hewn chest in Dhiels second book are both such survivals), and the small pretty ones. The modest sized chests surviving seem to be late 15th-mid 16tth century paneled chests, surviving for their pretty linenfold panels, and the likelyhood is they were more dormant furniture.

Then again, reenactors want chests to fit in cars, not to sling conveniently each siide of a pack saddle frame.

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Yup, we realize from art that mid-sized chests don't seem to have been as popular then as they are now. As you say, most people want a chest that will fit neatly into their car, hence the need for this type of handle.

These are what I use for my chests (with a modification or replacement of the plate): http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=40223&cat=3,41427,41376

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Jeffrey has made some fabo "historically inspired" handles for our chest. They're not horrible, but they're not documentable, either. We're trying to tighten up the parameters of the stuff we reproduce and stick to copies, moving away from the "inspired by" stuff.

We could always scale up a handle from a small coffer large enough to work on a bigger chest if we have to. Thought I'd poke this thread one more time to see what I could flush out before we mke a decision.

Thanks for reminding me about the Froissart though, I'll go back and have a look.

Sorry Bob, you posted at the same time I did. I'd say the vicinity of 11"deep X 16"tall X 30" wide-ish would be "middling". By the time a chest gets up to 18"deep X 16"tall X 40" wide-ish it's big enough to warrant the pole rings. Smaller than that (shoe or boot-box size) and we're in the coffer/small handle range.

Gwen

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Why is it that when you click on some of the images a picture of a dragon comes up instead of the image? It says "Leider dürfen wir Ihnen das gesuchte Bild im Internet nicht zeigen"

"Unfortunately we may not show you the looked for picture in the InterNet"

I wonder if it's not there because they don't have it, or if it's some legal restriction.

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If we do use Brent's info, he will get a set of handles for providing the image the handles are based on.

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page 61 shows an iron handle from 1200 - 1230

page 87 shows an iron handle from 1270 - 1350 and one from 1350 - 1400

Once you see the pictures, you will see there was little difference from 1200 to 1400 in the design and markings of a casket lid handle. The first handle is conjectured to be from a well lid or some other large round container, as it is curved to fit and is quite rough. Once again we have casket (small) boxes with handles or very large without, unless you consider a chain and ring for carry between pack mules or really strong people to be handles. There is very little evidence that I have found of iron handles for medium sized chests. Perhaps they did not believe handles were necessary. Perhaps two iron handles were too expensive most of the time, or just plain unfasionable. The _Medieval Household_ shows many mounts, hinges and strapping, but only three handles... It conjectures that the copper alloy were for caskets while the more robust iron mounts (tinned, silvered or plain) were for chests.

I believe there is a definite market for mounts, ornate strapping and accurate hinges vice handles.

Having said that, here is a pic of a plain handle much like the ones above. However it is on an extremely iron bound chest. I would guess this is a money chest and due to the weight required handles. It is also the only mid-sized chest I have seen that has a handle like that.

[ 05-03-2005: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

[ 05-04-2005: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

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I will definitely look up my MoL book. Thanks for the tip.

I don't know if you are still looking, but I have finally found my source for a documentable 15th century chest handle for a moderate sized chest, that is nicely finished (actually, Jenn finally found the book, where it was hiding, I do not know).

If you are still interested, I have photographs, measurements for the chest, and line drawing of the handles and other iron fittings belonging to the chest, that I will gladly post if you are still looking and the deal is ongoing.

The chest is positively attributable to the years between 1480-1500, it is plainly but dtrongly built (indication exists that it may have been originally leather covered, as some standard chests were) best yet, it is rectangular with a flat top, so it could serve as camp furniture, unlike most standards. Dimensions follow l. 3'8 1/2"; h without lid 2'1": thickness of lid, 1 3/4"; w. 1' 11 5/8"

The handles are *not* rings, but proper handles with escutcheon plates, and belong to the chest from the period of it's construction, matching in detail all the accompanying ironwork.

Interested?

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Worse thing that happens is we decide to do one from Brent's sources and one of yours, and we have to give away 2 sets of handles. That I can live with.

I'll get Jenn to scan and post the images, and I will post all the relevant information about the chest and it's history.

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Here is the chest I gave the dimensions for above. It is located in the Bijloke Museum, Ghent.

It was apparently originally leather covered - the tracieries of the terminal ends of the strapping have leather under them, indicating this, and as the strapping is not numerous enough to have held the leather in place on it;s own, presumably it was glued in place. The details of the chest, according to Penelope Eames are present on objects solidly dated to the 1470s.

Larger image

Looking at the drawing of the handle below, Eames states the sexfoil rose plates holding the handle are clearly last third 15th century stylistically , but the swelling of the handle itself toward the center is more commonly seen in 16th century furniture. Given all of the ironwork is stylistically consistant, and the rose terminals are original to the box, Eams stylistically dates it to the last two decades of the 15th century, rather than being a later addition.

Here is an earlier example of the same style of handle on a larger chest. (l 4'5 1/2", h including wheels 2' 5" diameter wheels 4 1/2")This iron plated monster is in the Gruuthuse Museum, in Bruge, and dated between 1450-1500. Large wheeled, iron bound standards such as this one are predominently identified as of Flemish origin, and date @ between 1440-1500. Chests like these are seen in the Master WA engravings of Burgundian encampments, inside of tents.

Link to Larger Image

This last standard stil has it's leather cover, and is smaller than the iron chest above by a little bit (l 4'3 1/4", H. including lid 2'; w. 1' 7 1/2") It is covered with leather throughout, and it is associated with Margaret Beaufort, and dated between 1480-1500. This is the type of small standard assumed to be intended for taking on horseback. Stylistic details of the ironwork date between 1460-1500

Link to Larger Image

You can clearly see how this style of handle is found on medieum sized chests of 15th century date, although the handles would normally seem to be straight cylinderical rods normally at midpoint, instead of swelling as on the Bijloke chest.

(edited to add the images are from "Medieval Furniture", by Penelope Eames. Furniture Historical SOciety of London, 1977.)

[ 05-13-2005: Message edited by: chef de chambre ]

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quote:

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Having said that, here is a pic of a plain handle much like the ones above. However it is on an extremely iron bound chest. I would guess this is a money chest and due to the weight required handles. It is also the only mid-sized chest I have seen that has a handle like that.

[ 05-03-2005: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

[ 05-04-2005: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ][/B]

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Nah, thats definately a 'standard' chest, for travel As you can see by the Beaufort chest (and the Hereford Chest Dhiel published), these things were iron bound pretty much to keep them together, and the wood tended to be butt joined, relying on the ironwork for strength. They were put either side of a pack saddle (although there is at least one cool surviving pack saddle with chest integral), slung either side of a horse. The tops are rounded, and the chests are usually leather covered to keep out the weather/off rain.

You want to see Medieval money chests, look at the ones still in the Vatican. At the least, they are entirely covered with iron, and have three or more internal locks.

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The best part is that they're in Bruges and Ghent- Jeff and He Who Has The Coolest Armour On Earth™ are going to be doing a grand tour of museums in the Low Countries in the weeks between the Scotland jousts, so Jeff'll actually get to see these in person! How cool is that!

Thanks Bob, these rock! Looks like I need to track down a copy of that book for myself.....

If you find one, grab it!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
Woot! These are way cool!

The best part is that they're in Bruges and Ghent- Jeff and He Who Has The Coolest Armour On Earth™ are going to be doing a grand tour of museums in the Low Countries in the weeks between the Scotland jousts, so Jeff'll actually get to see these in person! How cool is that!

Thanks Bob, these rock! Looks like I need to track down a copy of that book for myself.....

Gwen

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Glad you like them. If you can get better pictures of the Bijloke museum box chest, I'd love to see them - I was intending to make that particular chest for an armour chest at some point, leather cover it and all, and if you make the handles, I'll have no excuse not to.

I swear I've seen the system on furniture handles from archaeological digs in the Balkans, dating to the late 14th-early 15th century (might have even been on Talbots, or a similar site some time ago, as items for sale.

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