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That is de Leon's whole point Alan, they don't want to play billmen or archers.
There currently is no combat system in US 15th century re-enactment so you can't say that they will get into a scrap.

I think those are two really fundamental problems, outside of stuck up noses, for people having a driving interest to doing 15th century in the US. When people imageine themselves in various periods they have a picture in thier mind of being a roman soldier in a lorica segmenta or being a viking warrior or being a landscknect pikeman or being a 15th century knight in full plate. Only a handfull of people really dream of being archers. Other periods are able to fullfill the dream whereas we have more difficulties.

I know one of the things driving the viking/11th century movement is the idea of fighting at Hastings. The Vikings have a well developed system that they are spreading in the US and it has appeal for people. Several of the SCAers doing Viking stuff in Texas aren't big authenticity mavens or big into viking stuff. They get to dress up and play vikings with swords. 15th century people in the US always say oh we know eachother or we will eventually build up a system or we can't agree. Until people can read a set of rules for a system and know that its used at events they won't be convinced that any sort of scrapping is occruing.

Brent

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So that I've got this clear, none of you are fighting groups?

If that is the case, whyever not? 15th century Medieval combat is bloody good fun and it would be a pointless (to me anyway) to buy the weapons then not use them.

It's only a thought, but if this is the case, maybe you should try and get a formalised fighting system organised, I would suggest one similar to the one used by the Vikings, as it's one the standard ones we use here in the UK as it can be adapted to different periods. It might also be a boon for recruitment from amongst members of the SCA (which has its own combat system) as many may not want to do 15th century re-enactment if they don't expect to get a fight.

Personally I'd rather do civilian stuff but I agree if you want to gain popularity with military centric group doing something with the weapons is fundamental.

I've suggested and even pushed for the adoption of a set of rules and standards but others would rather try to do it adhoc or one group has interest in using boffers while others don't. Its a real mess that I've washed my hands of.

We actually managed to run a tactical scenario almost a year ago at the first Retreat to Calais 1475, with rebated steel and blunts, and it worked.

I've been trying to get some sort of concensus for fighting for as long as I have been in 15th century reenactment (1997, when we started), and the problem is that the groups tend to be very insular when it comes to this sort of thing.I have been involved off and on with HWMA for a few years longer, and why something cannot be agreed to is confounding to me.

Keep in mind our numbers are minescule, and each group tends to be a bunch of friends who have played with each other in other groups for a long time, and just do what they do. At the first event I attended as a guest on the East Coast, I asked several people to explain their rules of engagement to me, what was allowed, what was not, and I could not get a coherant answer - I really have never gotten a coherent answer.

What it boils down to is I think I will be making a tactical scenario for our next Retreat to Calais event, and make a standard set of rules based around what is acceptable to my members, very likely adopting in large part the UK rules, but tweaking them a little to allow a more historic approach, and then if atendees wish to engage in our tacticals, they can follow our riules, and if they don't find them acceptable, then they can engage in other activities at the event.

It is very frustrating, I actually ran into several reenactors early on who would under no circumstances consider entering into a reenactment where horses were present, which I consider to be a very odd attitude as every other era of reenactment in the US has cavalry, or at least officers mounts present in one form or other, and they have been doing this sort of thing for 30+ years.

So Alan, if you were beginning a system from scratch, what would you allow and not allow, as a reenactor, and someone who has been doing this for years?

Bob Posting as Jenn because she didn't log out)

[ 05-06-2005: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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So Alan, if you were beginning a system from scratch, what would you allow and not allow, as a reenactor, and someone who has been doing this for years?

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I'd go with the combat system that I've been using for some 15 years!

To start with,all areas between the shoulders and thighs count as a legitimate target, no head blows to be allowed (you can never count on the fact that the fellow you're fighting is wearing a good helmet, they may have just bought something that looks pretty but is pretty useless - something we've all done I'm sure!).

Then move onto using point and slash: Again, only between the thighs and shoulders (which gives upper legs, arms and torso as a target) and make sure that everyone knows to pull blows - I had a fellow at the weekend go in far too hard and it's pretty unpleasant. Just get poeple to remember to hit hard enough to make sure they're know they've been hit, but not hard enough to hurt. This should apply to all attacks.

Grappling: Over here it's frowned upon, and with good reason: Those in favour of it always forget that in grappling there is little control as opposed to weapons play. If you want to grapple, then only do so as part of a choreographed fight.

Make sure all weapons conform to the same safety standard: E45 Manganese sprung steel is best, although the weapons that they make at Lancaster's Armourie are just as good. All weapons have to be blunted, no sharps allowed unless for demonstration work.

To have everyone on the same scale, simply introduce a series of tests to see if each combatant can fight safely. The testing should be pretty exhaustive, remember that battles are long and people have to stay focused right until the end, so they can't start making silly mistakes. So long as they remeber the areas to aim for - thighs, arms and torso and that the blows should be pulled, then you should be fine.

Well, that is pretty much what I had in mind - no blows to the head, blows between the torso and thigh - pretty much that is what we used at our last tactical, but it pretty much ended in a short burt of gun and bowfire, a brief few blows from swords, and a running match - our numbers are small enough we were talking a half dozen people or less per side the first tactical we ever did, so I wanted to make the objective for each side interesting and reasonable.

Essentially, it was a foraging/looting party running into a garrison patrol, and if we did a straight up slugging match, any fighting would have been over in 5 minutes, instead of the maybe half-hours diversion we got. As I recollect, the foragers ran into the patrol, which fired on them, and the foragers then broke for cover, trying to work their way around the patrol. They then tried to overrun the forward element, and lost due in part to not wanting to part with their loot, a couple broke away, and one almost made his objective in a spirited flight, until he was run down by someone more agile than me.

We didn't allow foining, as more than half the people were 'naked' men, in essence, and I might keep that as a general rule. We were using Del Tin blunts, or swords blunted to that standard as our general standard. Poll weapons are a tougher bit, which we haven't gotten around to adequately covering yet.

We had/have bows, arquebuses, but as of yet no acceptable crossbows. The bows are the toughest bit to cover. Gunpowder weapons are easy - pretty much the gunners were experienced reenactors and used the general rules of the other eras they play in.

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Crossbows are different thing, and should only be used by someone who is an experienced shot.

Pole Weapons - you're in luck as this is something I teach people to use! Tell those using them to aim to stab with them - swinging it round may look good in Talhoffer, but remember that on the field people have a nasty habit of not paying attention to the people standing next to them! Instead, form up in a rank (if you have a large group form them up 7 ranks across by 5 deep) and have them proceed like this: First and second rank keep spears/bills/pikes at waist level only! Stab with them from there. 3rd rank keep it at an elevation slightly above 45 degrees, last two ranks keep it held up at the shoulder (also known as the 'advance' if you've seen pike drill). Pike and spear drill are basically the same, the only major difference is that in re-enactment you keep the pikes/spears at waist level. This is how I get a schiltron to operate and it workd very effectively - if you have a few sordsmen to spare, put them on the flanks to skirmish against anything coming in against you, the spear block stays together as one unit, not moving from rank until the person in front is killed, then the person behind moves forward one place. If you only have one rank, as with a full unit keep them tightly packed and nothing will get through - last year at Bannockburn, myself and six other spearmen took a schiltron to pieces because the people at the back of it were breaking ranks to come forward. It took 7 of us less than a minute to destroy them! If you only have one rank, then allow for some swors to be used - they will all very likely end up in skirmish order anyway, however in a larg unit get rid of them - everyone is packed shoulder to shoulder, so space to move is at a premium.

When stabbing with the spear, keep the hands down at the base of the shaft - remember that a spear is at least 7 feet long, so if you use it from further up you give up that advantage! Keep the hands AROUND the shaft of the weapon, NEVER, EVER put a hand across the base of it - if someone runs onto it, if your hands are around the shaftit will simply be pushed back, however if you have a hand across the base, it will stab them.

The PM that you sent went to our other email account, I've just forwarded to Bob this morning.

I think he'd like to, he doesn't normally have access to the Internet during the day and rarely checks the other email account.

Jenn

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Since in most battlefield cases, you really don't know if the person you are facing has had any formalized instruction and can pull a blow against a weak spot. I've also heard many re-enactors in other "time periods" say that they've experienced transcendent moments in which they felt like they were on a real battlefield and instinct took over. By that, I mean people get excited and some of that training and safety went out the window.

Bob experienced one incident on a Civil War battlefield where the participants IGNORED the script and overran the union position. Maybe not a big deal, except they were an artillary battery and several of their canons had charges ready to go. Within a certain range, the concussion can kill. They also got over zealous in trying to take the colors (not part of the script) and hand to hand insued in some cases it was a little more genuine and some bruising and bone bruising occured. One confederate caught a rammer between the eyes.

So, the restriction of blows to a specific range of targets to prevent injury is important.

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I also wonder if fighting with steel will really be any incentive for drawing in SCA crossovers, as there is such a complete bias -against- any sort of steel fighting in the SCA. It's certainly treated as a taboo subject on this coast- how about over on the other side where the rest of you are?

We had horses, guns, steel weapons and religion in the Red Co. which pretty much made us pariahs to the SCA out here in California!

A friend of mine took some video footage of Bob and Pieter a few years ago that looked pretty impressive. Alas the footage is on a DV tape buried in storage somewhere. I keep telling him if he'd give me the collection, I'd run it until I found it.

When we ran a few Fiore seminars (Bob Charron was the instructor) it was all waster, no steel. As the organizer, I wasn't that trusting, and we didn't want to be held liable if someone "got stupid".

"I want a Del Tin Tewkesbury Sword for Christmas".

"You'll poke your eye out kid."

(Twist on "The Christmas Story" and the Red Rider BB Gun)

I don't think it will draw a lot of SCA folks over. There seems to be a venue, at least on the East Coast, for them to demonstrate within the Society. Or if they have the desire to "compete", they have joined or formed a WMA club and hold foot combat tournaments.

[ 05-10-2005: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
I also wonder if fighting with steel will really be any incentive for drawing in SCA crossovers, as there is such a complete bias -against- any sort of steel fighting in the SCA. It's certainly treated as a taboo subject on this coast- how about over on the other side where the rest of you are?

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There's a current motion on the table, to be voted on in July, to allow WMA activities under the Arts and Sciences, instead of the Earl Marshal. What that means, is that it will be treated as a study of historical technique, instead of as another fighting activity. Currently, as a fighting activity, kingdoms and local groups can ban it. As an A&S activity, those wanting to do it on a local basis will have the ability.

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
We've always had steel in Wolfe Argent, though if we are going to do something a little more elaborate it might be choreographed with wasters first.

A friend of mine took some video footage of Bob and Pieter a few years ago that looked pretty impressive. Alas the footage is on a DV tape buried in storage somewhere. I keep telling him if he'd give me the collection, I'd run it until I found it.

When we ran a few Fiore seminars (Bob Charron was the instructor) it was all waster, no steel. As the organizer, I wasn't that trusting, and we didn't want to be held liable if someone "got stupid".

"I want a Del Tin Tewkesbury Sword for Christmas".

"You'll poke your eye out kid."

(Twist on "The Christmas Story" and the Red Rider BB Gun)

I don't think it will draw a lot of SCA folks over. There seems to be a venue, at least on the East Coast, for them to demonstrate within the Society. Or if they have the desire to "compete", they have joined or formed a WMA club and hold foot combat tournaments.

[ 05-10-2005: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
Alan, how does "Reenactment fighting" compare to the "Full Contact Tourney" stuff Lancaster Armouries' hosts? I've seen the latter several times and have to admit I thought it a bit dull. (Although I hasten to add the contestants and other spectators seemed to enjoy it a great deal!)

Gwen

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
Hmm... then we must be one of the exceptions rather than the rule. In our re-enactment/LH group we use historical technique. Probably more to do with the venue in which we normally do our work.

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If you are going to have safe un choreographed combat, you have to do at least one of the following: armour the man, even if you are using techniques for unarmoured combat; reduce the danger of the weapon (boffers, rattan, or aluminum swords); or use unhistorical restrictions of technique (SCA, UK re-enactor).
mark

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Mark, the first re-enactment group I was in, those that did the majority of swordplay were unarmoured: even with new HSE rules for re-enactment, they still are.

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