I’m in the very early planning stages of forming this organization with the ultimate goal of Living History. However I am aware of the difficulty of that endeavor so we are taking a more realistic, re-enactment, approach initially. The group is currently made up of SCA people who have, like me, found the lack of attempt at accuracy to be discouraging. I’ve come to the realization that the SCA is simply too large and cumbersome to readily adapt to change. The best way to affect improvement is to form a separate organization of like minded folks.

I suppose what I’m looking for are suggestions from those more experienced. Such things as the pros and cons of time focus, i.e. doing 1375 to 1425 vs doing May 13, 1400. Group persona and how it affects the individual. The advisability of incorporating for legal purposes and, if so, how (not-for-profit, as a business, etc.) Any thing else at all

Bottom line, I’m very excited about this but I want to get started on the right foot. We’re located in Western NY & PA, and I don’t think there’s anyone else nearby so I figured I post here.

We aren't ignoring you, but the most of us are heading off to an event. I promise a well thought out response on our return.

Talk to you on Monday.

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Though a wide time range allows the most participants, I believe it also waters down the experience and creates more research to get it all right. Choosing 1390 as a date is really helpful for the combat aspect because of the newly discovered Italian fighting book written in 1409. (You can be very accurate with Fiori de Libri's system. And in my opinion there is never a reason to hit with any power. Skill is what is important) Say a five year period prior to 1390. You cannot be beyond 1390 as events have not yet happened. You dont wish to be too early, as you would not be fashionable. This also gives your members a core knowledge that they can be in-depth in. I mean recent battles may be discussed infront of the public, prices of food and goods can be well known. Important real-life people can be accurately discussed. By picking a certain locale, you will know distances to other centres, weather patterns, trade routes, etc. Any question by the public can be easily answered the same by everyone.

Perhaps you are not interested in lists of items, but...

Instead of everyone buying a bronze cook pot, the basic necessities can be held in common. I mean barrels for water and wine, wash tubs, trestle tables, stools, benches, fire making equipment, pots, etc. This makes it easier for the public to view. ie. 'Over here is how the food is prepared.' Real barrels are expensive, but still available.

Most medieval illustrations do not show much in the way of furniture used in the field. They do not show sun shades. Even wealthy people are shown sitting on the ground for a picnic, albiet on cloths or rugs. Stools and benches are the board and stick-leg variety if depicted in outdoor scenes. By stick-leg I mean not a slab end, and certainly not a twig. But either round or square or rectangular.

For personal equipment, that a person probably had access to, and would show up with at a tourney; Most would find lodgings, but for those who expected to camp:

Locking chest - only large enough for personal items and clothing. The lock is to keep the honest people out and the general public who will paw through anything. If you have a sword, make the chest long enough for the sword to fit inside, even if it has to be at an angle. However most chests can be quite small. (16 x 16 x 24) Use Oak, Maple, Poplar, Pine. The recent surge of pre-joined pine 'shelves' is a boon for a source of wide boards, up to 16 inches wide. They need a coat of paint to hide the multiple glue joints. Most chests were painted to hide that ugly oak look :-) Paint is earth pigments with a binder of egg yolk, Cennini mentions it. A one to one mixture works. If your character can afford it, get it carved, then painted. These chests are not 'footed' that is to say raised off the ground. They are normally depicted as legless boxes on campaign. Footed chests are normally indoor storage and did not travel as they do not pack well.

Bed - slat or rope. Straw tic with a couple of linen sheets and a wool blanket. Linen can be purchased for $5 USD per yard. A Linen source 2x6 pine, or 1x6 Fir work well. Sisal rope, about a half inch works, and I have no idea how accurate that is.

Stools are not round ends of logs. Backs on chairs are extremely rare, and a discussion onto themselves. A 1x10 Poplar board, long enough for cutting 20 inches off the end for legs, will do nicely at a good price. Take the 20 inch length and rip it into four legs. Aim for a generic seat height of 18 to 19 inches tall. If it is a stool for a specific person, you can measure the bottom of the thigh height with the knee bent in a sitting position.

*trick* this was shown to me by Guerin. Run modern lumber through the planer (or hand plane it). Just enough to knock off the patina of the yard and square the edges. It is amazing how the 20th century look disappears from our modern mass produced lumber.

Group items held in common.

Barrels and washtubs are best sought through Jastown. Nice stuff indeed.
Barrels and kegs

Same for cook pots, though they are cast iron rather than bronze. Various sized cook pots
However the shape, lines and 'look' is indeed 14th c. Too bad it is not bronze.close-up of small pot
Trestle tables can be made with common fir 2x2 and the glued up pine boards. If you are using two lengths of pine boards 12 inches wide, then cut the 2x2 at 24 inches long for the support rail. Three legs cut to the height you want are then equally spaced, and offset into this support rail. A pair of trestles and two boards with a linen runner down the centre to place the food on, and your set.

For the necessary potter try Historic. They also offer a horn spoon that is very nice.
Pottery Link on left

Sorry for the long winded post, I am just avoiding work today.

[ 09-12-2003: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

[ 09-12-2003: Message edited by: Woodcrafter ]

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How focused your group is is largely dependant on your own feelings. To my mind, a narrow focus is best, because you can be much more accurate in a portrayal. That said. X day on Y year can to a degree be too focused, and neccesssarily limits your activities. The best bet is to have a focus narrow enough so there is no recogniseable change in equipment and clothing. In the latter middle ages, this is fairly easy to do, as fashions to a degree remained static for about a decade or so before major change (that said, fashions at a major court could change over a season, and perhaps there is more change than we can readily see with our eyes, because it becomes subtle). The focus you have choosen however seems perfectly reasonable, say 1390-1420. The fashion for houplands with large sleeves, odd bag caps based on rolled up hoods, pourpoints, pike shpes, ect pretty much carry through this era, although the armour on the cutting edge does change a little bit, the older equipment from the 1380's and 90's seems to be used alongside the newer to a large part up to the 1420's.

One thing to consider with a group is "will there be other groups to interact with?". The largest focus on Medieval groups in the US (that is reenactment groups) seem to center on the mid to late 15th century, and around 1066, to a lesser extent a spare few 14th century groups. You will fit into a 'timeline' event nicely with your intended focus, but you will have fewer playmates to play with for more focused events.

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I don't think you mentioned where you are from. Wait! Yes you did. Western NY and PA. Well, I may have good news for you. I have a couple friends in the SCA who are as discouraged as you are with their lack of attempt at accuracy. And, strangely enough, they are doing turn of the 15th century too! (That's one of the big reasons they won't come to our mid-century events). One of my friends is in Connecticut and the other lives outside of Philadelphia. There's also La Belle Compagnie of whom I'm sure you've heard. They do your period too.

So although there are currently alot more LH people involved in the mid-15th century, it looks like there's a lot of potential for new LH groups for the late 14th and early 15th centuries to form.

I'm going to email this thread to the two friends I mentioned and I hope you will have a chance to correspond with them.

Woodcrafter, great suggestions (appreciate the link to Townsend & Son) and I'm *always* interested in a good list :-)

Chef, I think you've given me some great thoughts on how to determine our focus. I hadn't approached it from the "style continuity" angle and it makes a lot more sense to look at it that way.

Kass, more specifically...I'm in Rochester NY (which is where the bulk of our people live) and we have a few souls in Erie PA and southern Ontario Canada. I *have* seen La Belle Compangie's website and have found it very educational.

So I guess it boils down to balance between a braod enough span of time to generate/maintain interest and a narrow enough span to really sink your teeth into the moment. I'll have to bring this up with my peeps :-)

Another question...what's a "timeline" event? By the context I'm speculating that it's some sort of shared event where groups that focus on different eras get together. Close? Do they camp/set up sequentially?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Michael C:
Another question...what's a "timeline" event? By the context I'm speculating that it's some sort of shared event where groups that focus on different eras get together. Close? Do they camp/set up sequentially?

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Precisely. On James' site, you can see pictures from MTA and MTT last year. Both are timeline events. Here's the URL: http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/eventgreys.htm

At MTT, the Sunday morning "Multi-period Tactical" is the most fun. We do it before the public arrive so we can really get crazy. Basically, all the camp are assigned sides take up arms against each other. The amusing part is that they rarely take up their *own* arms. A couple years ago, a Landsknecht woman "borrowed" an M-16 from one of the Vietnam lads and took a bunch of American WWII GIs hostage. And last year, my husband, the 15th century priest, was blessing people with his WWI-era 38 before he shot them (then he'd give them last rites with whiskey from his flask). It's a riot!

Who said reenactors are stuffy!

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael C:

Another question...what's a "timeline" event? By the context I'm speculating that it's some sort of shared event where groups that focus on different eras get together. Close? Do they camp/set up sequentially?

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You have the idea. MMT & MTA are the biggest East Coast events. Normally, you get a Roman Camp, A viking camp, Saxons, Crusaders, 100 Years war, War of the Roses, Landesknechts, and then a bunch of camps up to and including the gulf war. (after armor goes away, they just blend together into a bunch of "Gun" groups)

USUALLY, it's sequential, but some of the less bright organizers (Jamestown) occasionally mix groups around & really confuse the poor public.

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They are the largest pre-modern events. I don't consider them reenactments. They certainly aren't the largest East Coast reenactment events - Antitem, Chancellorsville, and Gettysburg usually draw over 10,000 apiece, and occasionaly double that.

I just can't get my heart into going to a 'dog and pony' show, to be in a competative environment, to be judged regarding authenticity by a judge who knows next to nothing about an era.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi Jeff,

They are the largest pre-modern events. I don't consider them reenactments.

I just can't get my heart into going to a 'dog and pony' show, to be in a competative environment, to be judged regarding authenticity by a judge who knows next to nothing about an era.

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MTA has the judging (and pathetic judging at that). We never enter any contests, but they still have the judges come by and make stupid observations, whether they are wanted or not.

MTT has no annoying judging. We're there to have fun and work with the public.

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Here are a few of my observations in re your original request.

It is indeed wise to keep a relatively narrow focus, time-wise. 5 to 10 years is quite legitimate, as Bob et al have said. It also makes it easy to have a sharper focus for a given event. Say your group decides to do 1390-1400. Later, you can decide to narrow the focus to April 14, 1397 (or some date which is important). Therein is a real challenge -- to find out everything there is to know about a particular day, in a particular place, in a particular era, and build a LH display around it.

Get quality equipment, from reputable suppliers, from the get-go. Too many people buy shite "just to get out there" and then have to spend more money to fix crappy gear. IOW, get your cook pots from Townsend or Godwin's (click here) instead of Dutch ovens from Wal-mart. Buy a period lantern from Gwen (Historic Enterprises; click on "Lighting") instead of a tiki torch. (Also visit nullThe Medieval Enthusiast for a thread on lighting.)

In early periods, it's more important to make sure your research is rock-solid before moving forward. In later periods, say C18-C20, we have far more artifacts and *gasp* photos; hell, sometimes we can talk to people who were there! But for C17 and back, we've got a lot of work to do before we can make a decent impression.

Begin with a reputation for solid authenticity, and continue to build that reputation. In LH as in real life, it can take for ever to get over a poor reputation, whether that reputation is deserved or not.
For example, there is a group (nameless) which for years was pretty damned farby. For the past several years -- hell, as long as I've been in LH -- they've been steadily raising their standards, and getting a heck of a lot better. But it wasn't until about a month ago that, in conversation with another familiar with the said group, they gained a grudging conciliation that they were improving.

Anyway. Do your research first. It is unwise to say, "I wanna reenact 9th century Irish monks" and then start building kit before you have some idea of what their life was like. See, you may get into the research and decide that 9th century Irish monks pretty much suck, getting burnt and all by Norwegians. Now if you have gone out and shaved your tonsure, you're gonna be pretty mad about that realisation, eh?
(As a side note, I have noted the increasing number of LH people portraying 6-10th cent. Irish monks in disguise. Ask me about that sometime.)

So get some kit together and come play! It'll be cool to meet you!

-Bob

Welcome! Always nice to have another like-minded individual.

Let me throw in a little bit here by telling you a little bit about how a group I'm in, Novae Militiae, evolved due to a question Bob asks you that we didn't ask ourselves: "will there be other groups to interact with?" We had initially started out as a group portraying Templars from c. AD 1200; due to several factors (some political), we decided to shift into portraying secular fighting men rather than members of the military orders, but still basing our impression around AD 1200. One reason we did this was to be unique, which we certainly are! No other group in the States comes close to doing this period, meaning there's NO ONE to play with. As a result, we found ourselves only doing the timeline-type events mentioned above, and continue to do so. However, for the present we've made lemons from lemonade: our group, for all intent and purposes, has pretty much become an interpretation-only group. First, we all thoroughly enjoy interpreting to the public (if you can imagine such a thing...); second, we are able to fill a relatively large gap in the east coast timelines, namely the one from 1066 till about 1360. We think this is a good thing, even though we've got no one anywhere to play with.

I'd also be happy to answer any questions you've got, so please post here or email me privately.