Background:
Guy emails me an order on 2/11/02. We fill and ship order via UPS ground COD at his request. Package arrives, and he hands driver check. UPS sends me check. When I deposit check, account has been closed. I call client, who says account was closed in error, he'll call when he sends a replacement cashier's check in a few days.

Few days pass with no word from client. I try to call client, but one phone is no longer in service and there is no answer on the other. This goes on for several days.I try to email client and email bounces. I contact seneschal of client's local SCA group (he signed order with SCA name and local branch affiliation, so seneschal was easy to track down) to find out if she knows him. Seneschal knows him and offers to talk to him.

Question:
Other than sending letters demanding payment and getting someone in the area to go pound on him and clean out his pockets, does anyone have any suggestions? UPS declines any responsibility, which I rather expected, I don't really blame them. Can I file a claim with his local sherriff's department? Call the local police? Can I file a small claims complaint here in San Diego? I figure I'll give him another 10 days to pay up before I post a copy of his check on my website, here and on other boards.

The amount in question is $408. It's enough to make me want to pursue it, but not enough to make me devote my life to it. I sent this bozo merchandise promptly, cheerfully and in complete good faith, so it frosts me to let him get away with it.

Any suggestions?

Gwen

BTW, if any merchants reading this want his name, just email me at historic@pacbell.net and I'll be happy to supply details. For all you know, you could be next.

I was on the other end of the same situation… I paid for a very expensive item with a vendor that stalled… and stalled and stalled for over a year and a half.

Here are the options I learned about in my search for retribution.

· Report to law enforcement in county that offender resides in. (a must if you want a legal leg to stand on) do this before your statute of limitation runs out and before filing in court.

· If any items were sent through US Postal service… even a letter with transaction details/agreements, this may elevate the fraud to a federal level (mail fraud) Note: this is a great threat and was what pushed my vendor to deliver a refund.

· You may wish to file in small claims (I would) it’s a small fee if you do this yourself and you can have the local sheriffs dept serve the papers for a small fee.

· Stay on that seneschal until he/she give the proper name and address, if they refuse… have a local sheriff visit them to get the info…. I guarantee the law enforcement will get the info. (let seneschal know that a law enforcement officer will be paying him/her a visit)

· Get mad and stay mad… no rest for the wicked, hunt him down like a dog!

Best of luck

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The prospect of public humiliation often works wonders.

Neil, I have every intention of publishing his name if this is not resolved PDQ. However, I have learned the hard way that as a non-SCA person (and a -merchant- to boot) that I must tread very delicately and be absolutely sure of my footing, lest my actions be considered "unchivalrous", and the gun turned on me for pursuing this poor misunderstood guy who made an honest mistake. Go figure.

The good thing is that at this point he has the clothing and I have a bogus check. If that fact doesn't put me on solid ground, God himself couldn't help me.

Arssante, so I file here in CA, and the paperwork gets delivered to him by his local sherriff somewhere in Middle America? Do I make that arrangement, or does the court?

Thanks for the help!

Unfortunately, I think this also means that you may have to dispense with your COD policy. Good luck. I also sent an offline message.

You must first make a written complaint to your SD or town PD. This helps establish the date, etc.

When talking with local law enforcement, don't forget to ask about criminal charges against this idiot for passing a bad check. There are a great number of people in this world who've spent considerable time in jail for that offense.

I don't know how things are in CA, but in FL small claims court costs approx. $80 to file, and subpoenas can be sent via certified mail. Under FL law, if you receive an award against someone in small claims you can ask (and usually receive) an additional award to cover court costs and other expenses (ie. phone correspondence in tracking this scumball, and any costs incurred while filing your small claims case).

Also, as it has been mentioned before, if he mailed you a check, talk to your local postmaster. Mailing a 'bad check' is intent to defraud, and therefore a federal offense as soon as it goes in the mail. Mail fraud can carry severe fines and jail time, and the postal service seems to love prosocuting these people.

Of course, if you know anyone with the right connections you could always have his legs broken... LOL

I hope you are able to resolve this situation. As someone who does a considerable amount of business via the internet, I worry every time--this just shows why...

Good Luck Gwen!

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like everyone else, I strongly suggest going through regular modern channels for collection of this bad debt.

The fact that the guy belongs to a club where they dress up funny should have nothing to do with it, and there's no reason to harass some poor volunteer who happens to belong to the same club.

Eddie Bauer wouldnt do it, why should you?

Our tax dollars are there to pay for the services of local authorities. If that doesnt work, I'm sure there's all kinds of collections companies that would happy to help out for a percent of the proceeds. they're very persistent, believe me!

(once long ago I accidentally wrote a rubber check for $5. The Bagel Bakery actually sent a collections guy after me...apparently when they bounce a check they automatically send out the dogs. sheesh! a simple phone call would have done it, but then again, the Bakery folks didnt have to do anything about it except make a call)

but as a real world business, keep your actions in the real world.
Check bounces
call the guy, no resolution
start the wheels in motion to pass it off.

the amount of money you collect may be slightly less, but the amount of time you WONT have to spend dealing with this, not to mention not having the heartache, etc seems to me to be well worth it.

just my opinion,
--AM

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also, re: posting names to email boards, etc...

just my opinion, but this only makes you look bad. People who dont understand/know the situation/dont care will only see the big old mean merchant picking on one of their funny dressed bretheren.

whats the goal? to make sure this guy pays up? go through modern collections agencyies/small claims courts/etc.

to make this guy suffer for the extra work/hassle he's caused you? go through modern collections/smal claims, etc. It will make a ding on his credit that can keep him from buying a house/car/whatever. That combined with the hassle of having to deal with creditors, court appointments (which are never at convenient times, not to mention having to explain to your boss why you need time off) or even the local sherrif is not bad retribution.

if it is truely an honest mistake (yeah, right), this gives him the opportunity to make good on it without making you look vindictive.

never back people into a corner. Breaking this guy at the expense of making YOU look bad lets him win twice, and that aint right at all!

again, just my opinion.
and for those who are getting a first insight into the little known fact that I'm actually not all that nice, I apologise for shattering your happy illusions .

--AM, who gets to deal with this kind of stuff (SCA people jaking on real world responsibilities) rather a lot. *sigh*...

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"like everyone else, I strongly suggest going through regular modern channels for collection of this bad debt."

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....As opposed to the medieval channel of turning up with a couple of brawny types with cudgels and beating the tar out of him if he doesn't pay?

Tempting, but I doubt we'd get away with it!

:-)

Eddie Bauer wouldnt do it, why should you?

Ah, and this is where the world goes grey.....

As you and I both know all too well, this particular club (unlike football teams, golfing clubs, and square dancers) makes a lot of noise about CHIVALRY. What if this guy assumes the pristine mantle of chivalry to cover his actions, and screws some other merchant? Can you forget the Baron and Baroness last year, the 700+ check they wrote to me and the trail of huge bounced checks they had spread across the country? They got away with it for so long because the merchants they stuck it to -bound by the codes of the group- considered it "unchivalrous" to pursue them. As my darling husband would say "That just ain't right!"

Believe me, I know what you're saying, and that's why only the seneschal, Jeff, Francena and I know this guy's name. I even contacted someone on this list who lives in the general area and lined up a possible knee adjustment , but I haven't even told him the guy's name--yet.

Look at this from the other side- the seneschal was glad I told her (and honestly, I didn't "hassle" her in any way, we had a very calm, adult chat about the situation). You're a Baroness, you've been the one in charge the same way I have. Wouldn't *you* want to know if there was a snake in your midst? If he passed me a bad check for $400, wouldn't you want to know before you allowed him to autocrat an event and take thousands of dollars into his keeping and sign contracts in the group's name? If his grip on what's right and what's wrong is so flexible, would you want to take him up on his offer of driving your friend's 16 year old daughter to an event somewhere across the state? Before you turned over the Kingdom's regalia into his keeping?

While I agree 100% with your comments regarding following modern collection channels, I feel in my heart that this is not as cut and dried as sticking it to Eddie Bauer. Because I'm not sure how I feel about how his involvement with this particular club fits into the Big Picture™ I'm currently following a very conservative line of action, and discretely exploring my options.

But I'm still not very happy about it.

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However, the fellow whether his intent started off as one of deception or not, soon became willful intent as soon as he started having his phones disconnected and lied about sending payment, etc...etc... The person in the "Society" may know him, but they are legally powerless to do anything other than talk to him and try to make him see the error of his behaviour in this matter.

I agree with AM that it would probably be best not to advertise this fellow's info on any public board without knowing what type of consequences this may drop at your own doorstep CYA. Many folks get involved when they perceive a legitimate grievence to be "an attack on the organization" a logical fallacy to be sure.

Off-line, I might inform my business associates who have the same clientele to be on the look out for "such and such".

Pursue through traditional channels. I would contact the Local Chamber of Commerce and the Better Business Bureau and see if they have recommendations for your situation, and any recourse. The laws vary state to state. NH is very protective of its consumer base, as a result, cases such as this would be tried according to the laws of NH which would supercede all others. It might be a good idea to find out what type of Consumer Protection laws are in effect within the offender's state.

Just some thoughts...

However, as many have pointed out; the fact that the transaction took place through the mail may bring the entire thing to a new level.

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from the Federal Trade Commission...
http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/fdcpa/fdcpact.htm#801

is the text of the federal law that outlines what you're NOT allowed to do, specifically:
1. you can call a third party (their work, etc), but you're not allowed to tell them its about a debt
2. you're not allowed to publish the debtors name in any public place (i assume next the cash register doesnt count, that's private property)
3. there's specific hours when you're allowed to call them

and a bunch of other stuff to "protect" the debtor. I didnt see anything in there saying what you're allowed to do....

this law was passed in 1977, and amended in 1996.

heres'a summary from the Small Business Association: http://www.onlinewbc.gov/DOCS/expanding/debt_collection.html

and heres a short artcile from the SBA on how to collect bad debts legally: http://www.onlinewbc.gov/DOCS/Finance/collect.html

basically they recommend using a collection agency.

a bit of surfing (insomina...what fun...) shows a universe of collections agencies out there, with them taking a cut of the debt. The ones I saw charged 33%.

wow, I had no idea that the government protected consumers so much. ANd I'm not so sure this is a good thing...

--AM, who wonders how credit card companies stay in business is all debtors have to do is tell them in writing to stop buggin them and then they legally have to...

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a) I don't know the US law, but the UK equivalent of this act only applies to certain types of debts - basically, credit agreements such as loans, credit card purchases etc. It does NOT cover skipping on a COD delivery.

Might be worth a careful read to see if the US rules actually apply to this situation.

b) Again, I don't know what things are like in the US, but I've used factors and collections agents in the UK, and 33% seems a very high rate.

UK rates are usually 2.5% to 10% for a "simple, straighforward" collection (essentially, one you can collect with a couple of nasty letters), up to about 25-33% for ones that involve legal action, distraint, using bailiffs etc.

The highest I've ever been quoted was 50%, for a debtor with a known history of violence against people trying to collect from him - you have to disclose that sort of information if you're aware of it, most agencies worth there salt have a clause requiring it, for their own protection.

A lot of agencies have a minimum charge for small, single transactions - 2.5% of $400 wouldn't be worth the admin costs, for example - or a sliding scale of fees depending on transaction size.

I suspect that US rates are a little higher (it's a bigger, more violent country), and that the rates I'm quoting are about as good as they get even in the UK (we're a large, reputable institution, so collectors working for us have a reasonable degree that the debts they're being asked to collect are legit - not a minor concern, if you're doing this sort of work), but it might give some sort of idea.

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Now you best take that back... or I'll get baby Bush to nuke your country!

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Originally posted by Ginevra:

Guy emails me an order on 2/11/02. We fill and ship order via UPS ground COD at his request. Package arrives, and he hands driver check. UPS sends me check. When I deposit check, account has been closed. I call client, who says account was closed in error, he'll call when he sends a replacement cashier's check in a few days.

Few days pass with no word from client. I try to call client, but one phone is no longer in service and there is no answer on the other. This goes on for several days.I try to email client and email bounces. I contact seneschal of client's local SCA group (he signed order with SCA name and local branch affiliation, so seneschal was easy to track down) to find out if she knows him. Seneschal knows him and offers to talk to him.

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Ginevra ]

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I have what may be a stupid question. Isn't the carrier responsible for this? After all, it is CashOnDelivery. If they do not collect the money for you in an orderly way, shouldn't they be responsible? At least this is the way here in Germany. If they give the package to somebody and do not secure payment, it is their problem, not mine.

Um, no, the US really is a bigger country...just check any good atlas.

More violent....well, right now, it's illegal for a private citizen in the UK to own any rifle, handgun, mace spray or similar, carry a knife with a blade over 4ins long outside the home, or own an especially fierce dog, on pain of some pretty damn serious consequences, including for the dog. Last time I looked, our murder rate per thousand was running at about a quarter of the US rate.

Our cops don't even carry guns, for heaven's sake, and we only deploy Tactical Support Groups (esentially, what you'd call a SWAT team) to deal with criminals with really dangerous weaponry, like baseball bats.

Your call!

b) Vallconan said "I have what may be a stupid question. Isn't the carrier responsible for this? After all, it is CashOnDelivery. If they do not collect the money for you in an orderly way, shouldn't they be responsible? At least this is the way here in Germany. If they give the package to somebody and do not secure payment, it is their problem, not mine."

Nope - the carrier DID get payment, in the form of a cheque. The problem is that said cheque then bounced.

It'd only be the carrier's problem if they handed over the goods without getting any form of payment in return.

After careful consideration, here's how I plan to handle it

• We removed the COD option from the website yesterday morning, so no more COD shipment.

• We are considering discontinuing accepting personal checks, but will continue to do so until we reach a final decision.

• We have sent the individual a certified letter, return receipt requested. The letter details the complaint, the expected resolution, and proposed consequenses for not resolving the issue.

• If payment has not been received by the specified date, we'll file a small claims complaint against him.

• If payment has not been received by the specified date, we will post a scan of the check and a synopsys of the transaction on our website.

• If payment has not been received by Pennsic, an enlarged copy of the check, with the person's SCA name and local group affiliation will be posted at the register of our booth.
  

This follows the letter of the law, and is really all we can do.

Thanks again for all of your input. I never expected this to be such a popular thread, and I have to admit I'm becoming a bit embarrassed by all the attention.

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We are considering discontinuing accepting personal checks, but will continue to do so until we reach a final decision.

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