The original discussion is at: http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000177

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
On a tangental issue, Jeff and I got to talking about your whole predicament regarding going in a more historical direction with your group. I want to caution you that you are standing on the brink of a VERY slick slope. This may be a good thing, but it can also be a dangerous thing. As you become more historical in your approach, the ripples of implication spread out from the source.

For example, once you have the clothing issue ironed out to your satisfaction, you'll start thinking about the Faire setting and your involvement. You're ostensibly portraying characters from the 1520's and 30's. So why are you at a venue that is set in the 1590's? If you can ignore that, how can you justify being anywhere near Elizabeth's court? England is a firmly entrenched Protestant country by now (even headed in that direction shortly after your time), and you are part of the Holy Roman Empire. What are you doing in England? Elizabeth has spurned the advances of Phillip II and turned her back on the Holy Roman Empire. Remember the Armada campaign?

I can tell you from experience that this whole "being more historical" thing can be a royal pain in the butt. The more you learn the crazier it can make you. The Red Company doesn't do RenFaires because they are set 100 years too late.Faire promoters court us and say "it doesn't matter what your period is, the public doesn't know the difference", but WE know, so we stay away. We can't attend SCA events because much real history runs counter to SCA culture and we offend by implication. We are left pretty much to hold our own events and attend military timeline events. This is fine, it just means we don't have as many event opportunities as we'd like.

You've already lost some members because they don't want to give up their leather clothing. You'll stand to lose many more if you tell them that you can't go to Faires and fight in the Pageant Battles. This is the time for you to take the long view and decide where you want your group to go. I can tell you from personal experience that "being more historical" won't stop with the clothing, if you do it right.

Just my 2d.

Gwen

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Originally posted by Tristan Wagner:
Hello Gwen,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ginevra:
[b]
On a tangental issue, Jeff and I got to talking about your whole predicament regarding going in a more historical direction with your group. I want to caution you that you are standing on the brink of a VERY slick slope. This may be a good thing, but it can also be a dangerous thing. As you become more historical in your approach, the ripples of implication spread out from the source.

For example, once you have the clothing issue ironed out to your satisfaction, you'll start thinking about the Faire setting and your involvement. You're ostensibly portraying characters from the 1520's and 30's. So why are you at a venue that is set in the 1590's? If you can ignore that, how can you justify being anywhere near Elizabeth's court? England is a firmly entrenched Protestant country by now (even headed in that direction shortly after your time), and you are part of the Holy Roman Empire. What are you doing in England? Elizabeth has spurned the advances of Phillip II and turned her back on the Holy Roman Empire. Remember the Armada campaign?

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Our group does the independent faire cirucuit. To understand why we do them you need to understand the independent faires. Also known as "small faires". They are looked at as primarlily a chapter of history vs. a page. And they are more for theatrics than true history. So many of the guilds and groups that perform there do not fit with the faire year. First off, not all of them are 1590's Elizabeth. Some are 1530's and 40's Henry VIII and some are 1560's Queen Mary of Scots. Typically only the court fits with the faire year and location it's set at. The indi-faires are mainly a place for diffent "re-enactment" groups to show off their stuff to the public. And while doing so, they interact with the other groups to create a more coheasive environment for the patrons to feel like they've become a part of. And, at each of the faires, typically most of the same groups are present, regardless of the year, court, or country. The groups will interact with each other differently though, depending on the situation. Like, at an English Faire, the Landsknechts are on the side of the court. At a Scottish Faire, the Landsknechts are they enemies of the court. If all the groups at an indi-faire portrayed their characters and clothing to match the faire year, then we would not be able to fit with all of them. But, the fact of the matter is that at any given indi-faire, you might find 1510 English longbowmen, 1536 Landsknechts, 1545 English Foote, 1560 Italians, and Tudor Knights of Saint John's. We all each have our own little living history area in which we portray what our group is. And then a time or two during the day, the various groups work together to put on larger shows. It would be best if every group portrayed the correct year, but if a restriction was put on that, then faire wouldn't happen, or not be as enjoyable as they are. Some of the faires we do are King Henry VIII faires and set around 1536. So, of course, they are prime faires for us.

The direction of our guild is not to be 100% re-enactment. We just want to make sure our clothing, encampment, and character backgrounds are historical. And we take that and add theatrics to it to make it more entertaining to the patrons. As it states in our purpose, we want to educate and entertain the public.

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You've already lost some members because they don't want to give up their leather clothing.

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Nope, I haven't said that. We actually haven't taken leather clothing out of our guidelines. We're gathering the research first. In the meantime, we're allowing, what's currently accepted in the Landsknecht re-enactment community. It's hard to disallow something that all the other Landsknecht groups allow without proof to the contrary. So that's why the current discussion on leather hosen. If leather hosen are proven to be not historical for Landsknechts to wear, then the clothing guidelines will be adjusted and any members with leather hosen will have to make new hosen appropriate to the revised guidelines. If they don't want to, then we may loose them.

To make your statement more clear, over the years, after more research, we adjusted our clothing patterns and styles to be more historical to our group's year of 1536. And those who did not want to give up their old incorrect clothing, left.

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You'll stand to lose many more if you tell them that you can't go to Faires and fight in the Pageant Battles.

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I'd loose me too! LOL

Like I stated before, our group is not strictly a historical re-enactment group. We are a mix is re-enactment and theatrics. So we will never give up faires. We may do some appropriate historical events. And if so, we will adjust our style of presentation to include less theatrics and more re-enactment. The key is that we will adjust to the venue. But faires are at, and always will be, at the core of the guild.

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This is the time for you to take the long view and decide where you want your group to go.

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All ready done. Here is our Statement of Purpose.

"St. Maximilian Landsknecht Re-enactment Guild is a 501(c)3 non-profit
educational organization that portrays a historical, but theatrical,
representation of camp life of das Todesengel Fähnlein, CIRCA 1536, on the
Northern California/Nevada small faire circuit, for public education and
entertainment."

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I can tell you from personal experience that "being more historical" won't stop with the clothing, if you do it right.

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Well, essentially we're more interested in looking historical. The year of 1536 was chosen for our guild simply to have a place to focus on the style of clothing and for the members to base their character histories off of. That way our guild has one look and one story.

I don't believe there is a black and white distinction between re-enactment and renfaire. I believe one can be teatrical while looking historical.

Hope that makes more sense on what our group is all about

(-Brad[/B][/QUOTE]

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Hi Tristan,

I'd have to say Yes, there is a clear and distinct difference. You have covered much of it in your last post.

Reenactment, by definition, is reenacting an actual historic event, with people or military units portrayed which were actually present. By it's nature, reenactment is a military event. You don't have elves, trolls, vikings, and generally make believe characters and peseudo-historics at a reenactment event. You won't find Vikings at Getttysburg 2002, nor will you find Redcoats at Hastings 2002.

By its very nature, a Rennfair cannot be a reenactment, especially considering the mixing of years, 'personas' ect. What is foisted off at the public at every Rennfaire I have ever witnessed (from Massachusetts to Maryland) resembles in no way history, any more than Storybook village in NH resembles a real town. They mention a few historic personages, a few historic places, then it's off to the spandex wearing fire swallowers, "knights" riding plow horses larking about in armour that looks like it's been banged together out of trashcans at worst, and put together by a failed apprentice of an armourer at best, goths, trolls, faieries - all for $20 a head to get in the gate, and a regular fleecing of the gullible public at every turn where they might need some article, either a souvineer or food.

History it ain't, unless it's a history of con artists and ne'er do wells (perhaps "A Childs Garden of Golden Cons", or "A Complete book of Grifting" )- 30 years ago most of the merchants and fortune tellers, etc, would have been run off by the bunko squad.

[b]That said, I'm not lumping your group in with these fellows. I know and call friends several who participate in Renn Fairs in a professional way. I know there are some "guilds" that strive for a sense of history.

The problem is the venue does not lend itself to history, precisely because it is ahistorical, and because of the commercialisim of the fairs, and the less than above board antics of many fair merchants and organisers. I havent been to any Fairs in CA, but from the photos I seen in "Rennaisance" magazine, I see no indication that history is no better treated there than anywhere else.

If you want to call yourself a reenactment group, theatrics are fine so long as the historical accuracy does not suffer for the sake of it. As soon as this occurs, you are no longer reenactors, but slightly better clad fair preformers, in undocumented (by any academic sense of the word) costumes - not clothing.

The only people I've ever heard of considering Renn Faires "reenactments" are participants in them. Ask real reenactor (and I mean other periods than us, ACW, ECW, F&I, RW, WW1, WWII - you name it) if they think Renn Faires are reenactments, or that Renn Faire Guilds are reenactment groups from their observations of same, or the generally accepted definition within the community, and watch their reaction. You will get an answer - eventually, after the guffaws die down and they wipe the tears from their eyes, and it won't be a pleasing one to you.

Don't feel bad, they generally look askance at us, associating anything pre-1600 with the SCA at it's worst.[/B]

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
Reenactment, by definition, is reenacting an actual historic event, with people or military units portrayed which were actually present. By it's nature, reenactment is a military event.

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I have to disagree with that statement. Reenactment is simply re-enacting something fron history. Be them a battle, or a town festival. Renfaires fit in there in that they are typically a festival event based on the period. Spring Planting and Fall Harvest are among the most popular. But their focus is on street theater and entertinment rather than historical recreation. So they aren't reenactment events.

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You don't have elves, trolls, vikings, and generally make believe characters and peseudo-historics at a reenactment event. You won't find Vikings at Getttysburg 2002, nor will you find Redcoats at Hastings 2002.

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Finding those "characters" at renfaires is usually because of the patrons. They often use renfaires as an excuse to dress up in their favorite fantasy personna. It's not usually the renfaire performers who are elves, trolls, etc.

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By its very nature, a Rennfair cannot be a reenactment,

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It can't be reenactment, but it can have reencactment aspects to it.

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especially considering the mixing of years, 'personas' ect. What is foisted off at the public at every Rennfaire I have ever witnessed (from Massachusetts to Maryland) resembles in no way history, any more than Storybook village in NH resembles a real town. They mention a few historic personages, a few historic places, then it's off to the spandex wearing fire swallowers, "knights" riding plow horses larking about in armour that looks like it's been banged together out of trashcans at worst, and put together by a failed apprentice of an armourer at best, goths, trolls, faieries - all for $20 a head to get in the gate, and a regular fleecing of the gullible public at every turn where they might need some article, either a souvineer or food.

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One thing to remember is that not all renfaires are the same. The ones in California usually strive for more historical accuracy. Take a look at an example of a costuming guideline.
http://www.renfair.com/2001/socal/costuming.php

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History it ain't, unless it's a history of con artists and ne'er do wells (perhaps "A Childs Garden of Golden Cons", or "A Complete book of Grifting" )- 30 years ago most of the merchants and fortune tellers, etc, would have been run off by the bunko squad.

[b]That said, I'm not lumping your group in with these fellows. I know and call friends several who participate in Renn Fairs in a professional way. I know there are some "guilds" that strive for a sense of history.

The problem is the venue does not lend itself to history, precisely because it is ahistorical, and because of the commercialisim of the fairs, and the less than above board antics of many fair merchants and organisers. [/b]

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The way I, and many other guilds look at it, is we bring history to the non-historical and commercial aspects of faire. Most of the guilds at faire teach many patrons about history much the same way that re-enactment groups do at a reenactment event.

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I havent been to any Fairs in CA, but from the photos I seen in "Rennaisance" magazine, I see no indication that history is no better treated there than anywhere else.

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You should check out some faires in CA. And especially in your period clothing. You will be appreciated by those who will recognize the periodness of your clothing. And don't just check out one. Check out many, for they are not all the same. They each have their good and bad parts.

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If you want to call yourself a reenactment group, theatrics are fine [b]so long as the historical accuracy does not suffer for the sake of it. As soon as this occurs, you are no longer reenactors, but slightly better clad fair preformers, in undocumented (by any academic sense of the word) costumes - not clothing.

The only people I've ever heard of considering Renn Faires "reenactments" are participants in them. Ask real reenactor (and I mean other periods than us, ACW, ECW, F&I, RW, WW1, WWII - you name it) if they think Renn Faires are reenactments, or that Renn Faire Guilds are reenactment groups from their observations of same, or the generally accepted definition within the community, and watch their reaction. You will get an answer - eventually, after the guffaws die down and they wipe the tears from their eyes, and it won't be a pleasing one to you.[/b]

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Actually, there is an ECW group that participates at many of the faires here in Northern CA. They simply do at faire what they do at a reenactment event. And I know many members of guilds who are also ECW, ACW, WWI, and WWII reenactors. When they are at faire, they act like reenactors. IMO, the quality of renfaires has increased by the participation of true reenactors. They bring realism to the faire. And that's what my guild tries to do.

I don't think any of us would call a renfaire a reenactment event. But with groups like ours participating, renfaires have reenactment aspects.

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Don't feel bad, they generally look askance at us, associating anything pre-1600 with the SCA at it's worst.

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I can see that. It's unfortunate.

People who do renfaire get the same rap. There is a generalization about Renfaires. They can be generalized in some aspects, but not all. And there is a major distinction between faires in CA vs. those outside of CA.

Probably what makes CA renfaires different than others is the implimentation of the "guild structure". Guilds are just one aspect of a renfaire. Guilds are what bring the "real" people to the patrons. In a typical renfaire in CA, there are guilds, vendors, street actors, and stage actors. Of those groups, the guilds and street actors are the strictest about looking historical. And guilds are the strictest about acting historical. Guilds usually focus on a particular aspect of the time period. By the definition of a guild, the Red Company is essentially a guild who focuses on a continental military company in 1471. Guilds will typically set up a "living history" area from which they present and teach the patrons about history in the Renaissance in accordance to their specialty. In the "corprate faires", the guilds are regulated to maintain a certain standard of historical accuracy. In the small "independent faires" the guilds are independently run and are not regulated by the faire, so a wide degree of historical accuracy will be found. Some don't really care about being historically accuracte(i.e Scottish Highland guilds who have Shield Maidens), while others care a lot and are constantly doing historical research to be sure they are presenting themselves as historically accurate as possible.

So, just come out to a Renfaire and see for yourself!

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Tristan Wagner ]

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While I agree that most of the REALLY wierd stuff you see at a fair (at least in CA, which is where I'm from) comes from the patrons, 99% of the participants aren't "reenactors" in my book, nor do I think they would qualify in the judgement of anyone who comes from the established "reenactment" eras (Civ War, Ref war, Napoleonic, SpanAm, etc). These groups take historical accuracy and portraying something that DID exist as a given. Theatricality doesn't even enter into it. The goals are different. Reenactors want to recreate an experience, usually only for themselves, not put on a "show" for the public.

I think you are deluding yourself by thinking that any but the smallest portion of renfair participants have the same goals as reenactors. Citing the "costume" guidelines for RPF does not help your case one bit.

While I feel that discussing historical clothing research methods (regardless of period, to a point) is appropriate to this BB, I think most here would agree that your 1530's time period is outside of the purview of Firestryker.

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Originally posted by hauptmann:
Tristan,

While I agree that most of the REALLY wierd stuff you see at a fair (at least in CA, which is where I'm from) comes from the patrons, 99% of the participants aren't "reenactors" in my book,

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I agree. I guess my point didn't get across well. And I guess I use "reenactment" more loosly than others who are actually reenactors. I don't know what else to call a group who portrays a certain aspect of history, say English peasants, and who set up an area with period style tables, stools, benches, shelters, with period style pots cooking food from period recipies, and other women weaving wool in the period way. They're doing the same thing I see at a reenactment event, yet it's being done at a renfaire. Is there a name for people like that?

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nor do I think they would qualify in the judgement of anyone who comes from the established "reenactment" eras (Civ War, Ref war, Napoleonic, SpanAm, etc).

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I didn't realize that reenactment was restricted to eras.

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These groups take historical accuracy and portraying something that DID exist as a given. Theatricality doesn't even enter into it. The goals are different. Reenactors want to recreate an experience, usually only for themselves, not put on a "show" for the public.

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Okay, then, well what would someone be called who does what reenactors do, except for the patrons like tthe folks at Jamestown?

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b]I think you are deluding yourself by thinking that any but the smallest portion of renfair participants have the same goals as reenactors. Citing the "costume" guidelines for RPF does not help your case one bit.[/b]

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I cited that only because I was responding to the comment about spandex being acceptable cloting at a renfaire.

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While I feel that discussing historical clothing research methods (regardless of period, to a point) is appropriate to this BB, I think most here would agree that your 1530's time period is outside of the purview of Firestryker.

Furthermore, as a moderator I feel it's highly inappropriate to debate the virtues of renfaires on this forum.

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Sorry about that. But I did not just randomly bring it up. It was brought up by others on this board. And I moved it to the "Off Topic" section for that very reason.

Please delete any posts you feel inappropriate. I'm a moderator of my own board, so I know how you feel

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I agree. I guess my point didn't get across well. And I guess I use "reenactment" more loosly than others who are actually reenactors. I don't know what else to call a group who portrays a certain aspect of history, say English peasants, and who set up an area with period style tables, stools, benches, shelters, with period style pots cooking food from period recipies, and other women weaving wool in the period way. They're doing the same thing I see at a reenactment event, yet it's being done at a renfaire. Is there a name for people like that?

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and,

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Okay, then, well what would someone be called who does what reenactors do, except for the patrons like tthe folks at Jamestown?

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In short, this is usually refered to as "living History", the idea being a "photograph" of life in the round. That said, The term is really properly applied to the Jamestown folks, the Plimoth folks, the Williamsburg folks - who are recreating not only daily life in a reconstructed historic setting, but are often recreating the known events of a specific day - say, Oct 7, 1649, in that specific place.

I hate applying the term to many other groups, because they are not professional, and their standards do not even begin to reach the lowest rung of these professional historic interpretors at these sites. You can do a dreadful job of 'recreating Medieval/Rennaissance life in the round', and if you are - if you are not devoting yourself to exacting standards of authenticity - then what you are doing is not Living History, or Historical interpretation.

I think rather that many of the groups falling into the first catagory you mentioned would properly be termed 'Medievalists', or 'Medieval Enthusiasts'. Some groups do a professional job of interpretation, or Living History - to name some famous ones, "The Company of St. George", and "The White Company". In the US, Red Co. does a nice job of this, and Wolfe Argent has the privilige of doing interpretation work at the Higgins Armoury - we are renenactors striving toward the goal of Living History, and Experimental Archaeology.

In doing our interpretive work, we have to meet standards of accuracy suitable to the Museum environment, and all the interpretive work we do is reviewed by the Education staff, and the curatorial staff of the Museum. I have a "boss" - several, actually, with the head interpretor of the Education department being our immediate one. In example, I submitted this weekend a new programme on "The Medieval Soldier", which was scruitinized for accuracy and content before being allowed to actually do the presentation this coming Saturday. In comparison to the real professionals - full time interpretors at places like Plimoth or Williamsburg, we are pikers. Anyhow, interpretation properly is thoroughly researched and documented, and also subject to change as new evidence is published in the field.

Experimental archaeology is the reconstruction of objects as close as possible to the actual historic artical, and then subjecting the newly made object to actual use "in the field". In example, Wolfe Argent is reconstructing a series of brigandines - to the point we are copying extant ones, using appropriate material, and going to great lengths to have made for us approxomations of that we cannot reasonably make in large enough quantity ourselves -the brigandine nails, which we are having made to castings of original ones located in the Higgins reserve collection. We are using modrn tools to do this, and a modern workshop - the real avant guard in the field use authentic tools, etc, but we must make do with what we have. Jeff Hedgecock has constructed an excellent replica (in form and function)of a 15th century war saddle, and is engaging in experimental archaology by putting it to use.

Anyhow, what we are doing "this side of the pond" in regards to Medieval Interpretation or experimental archaeology is a very small noise in comparison to some of the work going on in Europe. One field this continent does excell at, however, is the study , translation, and publication of Medieval and Rennaisance 'fechtbuchs' - a whole slew being published over the next few years.

I am not trying to be a snob (actually, I am very humble regarding "our" - Americans- efforts in this field - and especially mine), but simply trying to point out the real depth of Living History, and why it really cannot be compared to weekend Medievally themed social activities, or to Renaissance Fairs. The things are worlds apart as a kindergarteners sums are to a college course on calculus.

I would welcome anybodys sincere attempts at LH as fellow travellers. That said, I cringe when I see (in example) someone shoot a modern bow with fieldpoints at a ham draped with modern butted, galvanized mail, and then proclaim what they are doing is as valid as what the professionals do.

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but simply trying to point out the real depth of Living History, and why it really cannot be compared to weekend Medievally themed social activities, or to Renaissance Fairs.

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At the same time, shouldn't we be reaching out to the largest audience we can? Shouldn't we be there to explain that the "show" takes liberties (politely, of course) but if you want to know how it really was done, you need to look more in this direction? Wouldn't a living history counterpoint be refreshing to bring out the contradictions in Hollywood's B.S.?
I don't understand the purpose of going to great lengths to re-create a Living History Exhibit if you are only going to draw thirty or forty people, who are bored because you haven't been able to "connect" with them on a plane they are used to thinking on. I love Fiore, but when it's time to draw a crowd, I am using John Waller and Michael Loade's stage fighting techniques because it is dramatic and flashy, and catches peoples' eyes. Once you've set the hook, then you can reel 'em in!

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I did Physics to "O" Level (a quaint english term for the exams you do at 16) and then "A" level (18).

The first thing you get told in your first "A" level class is "By the way, everything we spent the last three years telling you is actually, strictly speaking, a lie. It assumes a pure Newtonian universe, and things aren't actually that way...."

I didn't do physics at university, but I'm told they get essentially the same speech - what you spent two more years at A level learning wasn't actually true either. It did WORK in the feild, for our limited purposes, but it wasn't actually any truer than assuming that planets orbit in perfect circles.

You can't start out teaching quantum mechanics to 13-year olds. But if you can teach them about elementary ballistics, that's something, and the ones who stay with it will eventually work through to the Hadrons and Leptons.

In the same way, surely we should pitch our work differently according to setting. If you're doing an interpretation at the Higgins or whatever, those folks have turned up for an educational experience, and you'd better be spot on.

Equally, if you're doing an event like a RenFaire (I'm working from analogy here, as we don't have them in the UK), then anything educational you can slip in while entertaining people who are essentially out to have fun is a bonus.

The more historically correct you can be, the better, but at the end of the day, if a group can get "mostly correct", and educate the public a little bit, I'd be willing to take that as better than giving up the feild to people who are just out to make a buck and don't give a damn about the history.

Neil

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The more historically correct you can be, the better, but at the end of the day, if a group can get "mostly correct", and educate the public a little bit, I'd be willing to take that as better than giving up the feild to people who are just out to make a buck and don't give a damn about the history.

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I'm with you there Neil. Besides, how do you get people "interested" in any form of reenactment or Living History? For many individuals, it was going somewhere, seeing someone "in costume", doing something "historical" that got that individual thinking and then finding a way to "dress up" too.

How far and how accurate a portrayal can become depends on how serious an individual gets or how much time they are willing to devote to a hobby. I say that because even the most accurate, educational LH group, unless at the level of job like Jamestown/Plimouth Plantation types, is still pretty much pursuing this as a hobby--though some people have managed to turn certain aspects of it (like clothing, armour, costrels and tableware) into a business to support their hobby.

Some people will never get more involved than putting on fairy wings and elf ears each year at the local Renn Faire, some people do Amtgard or LARP, some people progress to the SCA, Markland Militia or Empire of Chivalry and Steel, and some individuals go all the way to the Red Company.

However, where are you going to find those people who want to go to the Red Company's standards? While limits and only finding serious participants is not a bad thing, to say that you can only find those people at a museum exhibition is not completely realistic in all cases. Good people are found in all walks of life and I think sometimes LH people miss enthusiastic and hard working participants because they limit themselves as to "Where and When" they are willing to educate the masses.

Just my opinion and I'll probably get blasted, but I understand and applaud your efforts Tristan.

Brenna

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I'll back Neil's well made point about RenFaires "that anything educational you can slip in while entertaining people who are essentially out to have fun is a bonus.", because I think that sums it up the best. RenFaires exist as an entertainment venue, not as a teaching environment. Costume codes tweak reality for the sake of theatre- those guidelines that Tristan shared earlier on go on to say that only the Queen can wear purple and white so Faire patrons can distinguish her from everyone else. Likewise, although I didn't find it in the guidelines, cotton gauze and tie-dye are Faire costume staples and they are not historical.

As for SdL assertion that one has to be theatrical and flashy to catch people's eye so you can "reel them in", I say with all due respect - hogwash. The flash may catch people's eye, but even children can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. Theatrical fighting is flashy, but it is discounted as just that- fake fighting. At the Vegas Faire we put the weapons rack out front of the encampment and have to man it for every second the Faire is open because people are fascinated by the weapons and armour displayed. Noone is being "flashy"- it's a completely static display and yet it draws people like a magnet. People will seek out what interests them, regardless of how it is presented. If they are interested in history, they're going to walk right past the nearly bare-breasted, leering "wench" to me and ask me about my clothing. I know because it's happened at Faires. Flash doesn't always catch the people you want, but reality always does.

As Brenna points out, participation in any form of historical pursuit is a hobby for all of us. Thank God it's a free country and we have the right to participate in whatever group we want to, at whatever level we want to, whereever we want to. If Tristan wants to research his clothing to an atomic level and wear it at a RenFaire, that's his right. If Brenna wants to wear her torse as a hat at an SCA Empris, that's her right. If SdL wants to swing a sword like Errol Flynn at a RenFaire, that's his right. If Bob wants to spend months researching a presentation for the Higgins, that's his right. None of these pursuits are any more valid or noble than any other, and one expects that they provide some level of "fun", else those people wouldn't be doing it. It is their hobby after all, and we all find our "fun" in different places. This addresses Brenna's point about finding participants for these various groups. Some people want to attend RenFaires, and some want to do LH events as members of the Red Company. It's good that there are groups at different levels to fit participant's interest levels. Former SCA, Adrian Empire and RenFaire participants have joined the Red Company for our increased level of historical accuracy and standards; by the same token we have had some members drift away to joint these other groups because they were not interested in our level of accuracy. There's no hard feelings from me on this, since I recognize and endorse the idea "different strokes for different folks".

I think what it comes down to is if you want to play football, play football and don't try to twell the audience it's baseball. It's no more "noble" to play football than baseball; they are both sports but they are not the same. If an audience comes to a venue expecting football, give them football and don't try to pass baseball off on them.

It boils down to a matter of semantics, and Tristan should not be ashamed to say (in this case) that the RenFaire is an historically themed entertainment venue that he and his group enjoy participating in. I don't think less of his efforts (or him) for it, but it does put his angle on the implementation of research into perspective.

Just my 2d, your mileage may vary.

I am a rank beginner, a neophyte in LH -- as a matter of fact, I'm at the Fascinated Observer stage, and may just stay at that level. However, I never would have gotten this far if I hadn't "warmed up" with attendance at some Renfaires and SCA events. I have been a Medievalist for about 45 years (since age 7), and I have had the good sense to know there was a lot of inaccuracy in the things I was seeing. I was also able to see bits and pieces of clarity and accuracy, and the passion for life-in-other-times that there was, here and there in between the less accurate "characters".

These little glimpses of REAL history still stand out for me in my memory. If those brave souls who dared to show up at the NY Renn. Festival in (relatively) authentic kit and talk about cannons in the early 16th Cent. (for example) had chosen to stay home instead, I might not have had the fuel to keep searching for authenticity.

See, the presence of real LH folks is reassuring to people in the general populace who have authenticity leanings -- it is basically advertising that yes indeed, authentic history does exist -- it just has to be sought out.

This Board is a wonderful resource, but I keep finding people who don't know that it exists, and who don't know that there is a hidden world of real living history groups around -- and these unaware people I meet are people who are interested in history, too. Besides advertising the existence of real historians (a breath of fresh air to those of us sifting through what's available at many rennfaires), it keeps our hopes alive.

I also felt some embarrassment at approaching actors who heartily greet me with" good morrow, My Lord", but am infinitely more comfortable talking with somebody who has some knowledge about an historical period about which I am curious. LH people, even in character, are easier for me to talk to. There's less BS to deal with, and I appreciate their knowledge, so am more at my ease. Thank God some of you do go to rennfaires! It may be the only place people know to go to (or that is available) for a little dose of the Middle Ages. Keep up the good work, and keep that missionary zeal!

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If SdL wants to swing a sword like Errol Flynn at a RenFaire, that's his right.

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Your point is one of the reasons why The Red Company attends the Age of Chivalry Faire in Las Vegas.

• The Faire does not purport to be Elizabethan, it covers the entire “Age of Chivalry”.
  
• Our camp is the centerpiece of their educational program.
  
• What they pay us helps us buy and improve our equipment.
  

“The Wild” ( a band of fur clad teens painted up like zebras), “Brotherhood of the Gauntlet” (director’s chairs and belly dancers- even a laser strobe light!) and the like are there to provide “historical entertainment”, and the Red Company provides “historical education”.

I have to admit that I too am uncomfortable when approached by a complete stranger who wants to include me in his "bit". Remember that "street performers" and Guilds are encouraged to interact with "the public" (also known in Faire circles as "turkeys", at least here in California). Entertainment is why they are paid to be there. I'll have to remember what you said and my own feelings about participating in Faires when we are next solicited to attend one. I'll have to remember also how much attention our camp receives even though we're not putting on any sort of show. People are always stopping to ask what we're cooking/cleaning/playing/whatever, even though it's not a show, just us going about business.

I will add that Jeff and Bill are contractually obligated to provide a mounted sword combat to open the Pageant Battles. While they enjoy the combat very much, they *hate* having to “lead” ad hoc armies made up of generic Kelts™, Landsknect™ and English™. Thankfully, the Battle is a 20 minute historical debacle and personal embarrassment mixed into the rest of the event. In an effort to make it less embarrassing to participate in, we are currently hatching a plot to try to make the Pageant Battle at this particular Faire theatrically logical, if not historically accurate.

As time has progressed, I've noticed that some Renaissance Faires add more and more historical authenticity to its look at feel. I actually think what is causing this is the fact there seem to be no reenactment societies, events, or organizations, that are based in the 1500's. There are plenty of Medieval ones up to the 1490's. And then the 1500's are skipped and the 1600's come into play with the ECW. So, those who do care about reenactment for the 1500's have to turn to Renaissance Faires to show their stuff.

In the renfaires in California, particularly so at the independent "small" renfaires, guilds are what provide the most in living history for the event. Guilds are filled with people who care about portraying their characters and presenting their look in as historically accurate way as is possible for their means and resources. This guild structure is catching on in the other faires. But is still not up to the standards of the guilds in California. Now, guilds vary widely in how historical they care to be. For those who aren't very historical, some don't know any better and some just don't care. It's typically up to the organizers of the renfaire as to which guilds they allow in. So some renfaires will have more of a historic feel than others.

The guild I'm in strives to be historical. And we're not the only one. It was understood that being historical would take time and would need to be taken one step at a time since it's made up of novices in the history arena. Slowly, but surely, over the last 4 years, we've gathered more and more historical research on what it is we're portraying. And we adjust the ways and look to match the new research. So, where are we now?

- Patterns for clothing are gotten from our interpretations of period woodcuts and paintings. Not costuming catalogs or patterns.
- The base of clothing must be wool with leather discouraged and in the research process.
- Shirts are to be of linen, with cotton (not gauze) acceptable for cost reasons.
- Striped underhosen are currently from Renaissance Dancewear and are made of 90% cotton and 10% lycra. They have no sheen and are special ordered and dyed to period colors. We don't know how to make striped hosen in the period way.....yet.
- Clothing can be machine stitched, but any visible stitching must be hand sewed.
- No boots. Only the square toed shoes seen in the woodcuts can be worn. We have not found out how, nor anyone to make, authentic Landsknecht-style shoes, so we are lenient here.
- Only period appropriate weapons and armor may be worn.
- Swords worn must be Katzbalgers. And it's encouraged for them to be short bladed. Although most available Katzbalgers come with longer blades.
- Our pikes will be 16' with ash poles. We want them to be tapered as well. But are having difficulty finding a way to do that to already round ash dowel.
- Our pike and halberd heads are based off of woodcuts, paintings, and museum pieces.
- We use close to authentic pike and marching commands, spoken in German.
- We use period hand-made arquebusses and do the commands in German.
- We ask that everyone at least speak in a German accent. We are researching how actual Landsknechts would speak and pronounce old English.
- Only pavilions seen in woodcuts and paintings in regards to Landsknecht encampments are set up in the encampment.
- We are moving more and more to having only camp accoutre that is seen in the woodcuts and paintings in our encampment. We are limited by resources and funds. But making progress.
- Kampfrau will hand sew in the encampment with period style needles.
- Cooking is done with historical equipment.
- Gambling is done with period gambling games, i.e. Glükshause and Landsknecht (a card game)
- Some sing period Landsknecht songs at appropriate times.
- We march to the period cadence of "Hüt Dich Bauer Wir Komm".

As time goes on, we keep replacing the non-historical stuff with historical stuff as we learn how to make it or find somewhere to buy it. But we've started from scratch. When I started the guild, I had only participated in Renaissance Faires for 2 years. Besides that, I had no experience in the living history arena. I've had to learn a lot in such a short time.

As Gwen mentioned, we set up our stuff and let the patrons come to us and ask questions. So where does the theatrical part come in? The way we interact with the patrons and other participants at faire. And our battle pageants. We don't do any stage shows or anything like that. The closest we come to that is when we do pike drill and have someone explaining to the audience what it is that we are doing. And then we get the patrons out there and teach them some pike moves. We are currently learning and training in the period fecht arts for the various weapons we use (pike, katzbalger(dussak), halberd, zwei-hander, etc). And we are doing demos with them as well. But we are still very much in the training phase ourselves there. A big goal of ours is to be able to demonstrate a pike square. And we want to get a period canon or three

People are usually drawn to our guild because of the degree of historical authenticity we strive for and present. I lost count at how many times I've heard the comment, "Gosh, you all look so real". Our members care about being historically accurate. And it shows.

There are more and more groups appearing at Renaissance Faires that are doing just what we are. Some renfaires have more of those groups than others. Each renfaire is different than the next.

I'm very proud at how far we've come in such a short time. And we aren't stopping. We're constantly doing research. I can only imagine how far we'll be in another four years!

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Please don't think that I am trying to "bash you", or belittle your efforts. Wolfe Argent started out 4 years ago from scratch, and I know how tough it is to start something from the ground up. I had done ACW reenactment, so we had absolutely nothing aplicaple to what we wanted to do.

One of our first venues was a Rennfaire - the Hammond Castle Fair. We did but one event with them, due to internal politics within the Hammond Castle trust (between the fellow who organized the fair, and other board members).

That said, I would like to encourage you to "Dan Tucker it" - to "eat the whole hog tail and all", to use a bit of 19th century Americana. I understand your need of the fair as a venue to do things at, but don't leave it to that. If you are interested in 16th century reenactment, or living history, then quitely find others (orginizations as well as individuals) interested in your era, and organize a non-fair event. Even if it means having it in the back pasture of 'Uncle Bob's farm'. Do the serious stuff - no schtick, and do it for yourselves, for the sake of learning, and having fun doing it.

It sounds like you are interested in reenactment itself. It has to begin somewhere, and it can happen if you are willing to make it happen.

My earlier post is an attempt to clarify definitions that get bandied about casually. In my own assesment of what I do, I do not measure up to what I consider living history, but I am continually striving toward that goal.

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I don't think anyone is "blasting" Tristan's efforts. I believe Bob was pointing out ("in the nicest way possible", if I read that correctly) that being a well dressed actor at a RenFaire is not practicing living history as it is accepted by those who do. It's not "blasting" his efforts any more than pointing out to a football player that while he is participating in a sport, it is not baseball.

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Actually I DID NOT say that Tristan was being blasted at all. I said that I might "get blasted."

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If Brenna wants to wear her torse as a hat at an SCA Empris, that's her right.

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Have you been looking at pictures--they were really bad, LOL. But I do want to point out I'm not wearing my torse as a hat. I have a small coif to keep my hair from knotting up, a blackened steel skull capwith a leather aventail on under my torse, mantling and crest. Of course the open face isn't right for mid 14th century but hey, I'm claustophobic and it is the SCA

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If SdL wants to swing a sword like Errol Flynn at a RenFaire, that's his right.
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Excellent analogy! I am a rather dashing chap, don't you think?

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Oh, I quite agree, on both counts.

The whole point to my post was that I don't think ANY source of possible interested "recruits" should be dismissed--if it's a Renn Faire or a museum, it really doesn't matter. Something got everyone interested in pursuing a historically bent hobby, albeit to varying degrees of authenticity. The "dressing up" aspect catches most people's eye and interest first, what level they pursue it to comes after. Ok so I was pinning scrap fabric around my necks for a cloak, picking up a plastic sword and galloping off across the field on a forgiving pony in pursuit of dragons by age seven. If it wasn't that my career military father was marching me around a battlefield telling me about took place there but some people come to it later and a bit more "normally." Anywhere they find someone of like mind is a good place to be, no matter where that is.

Tristan wrote:

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no reenactment societies, events, or organizations, that are based in the 1500's.

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Wow, I never realized it, but you are right. At least I haven't seen very many. I'm sure it does help fill a niche.

Take care,
Brenna

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Though I have not been, I suspect the one in Sterling Forest might be more along our timeline or the one hosted by the MET(?).

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
I understand your need of the fair as a venue to do things at, but don't leave it to that. If you are interested in 16th century reenactment, or living history, then quitely find others (orginizations as well as individuals) interested in your era, and organize a non-fair event. Even if it means having it in the back pasture of 'Uncle Bob's farm'. Do the serious stuff - no schtick, and do it for yourselves, for the sake of learning, and having fun doing it.

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Oh, this thing is in process. We've aligned ourselves with the other guilds who care about historical accuracy. And we've had talks about doing this very thing. But we need to get our individual groups in order first.

Here are some interesting things in the works.

The English Company of Foote guild is working on getting land to hold a living history event of a Renaissance town done similar to Jamestown.

A group of old time, well to do, Renfaire folk are trying to organize a major task of buying some land north of San Francisco in which to build a replica castle and Medieval/Renaissance village. They're in discussions with historians in England to make sure it's all done historically.

The big faire known as Renaissance Pleasure Faire, North, is in the process of getting a permanent site. If it goes through, they will be building a Renaissance style town with proper roads, buildings, etc. in which to hold the renfaire on.

This is all being brainstormed and done by Renaissance Faire participants. So there are some who care about living history/reenactment

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It sounds like you are interested in reenactment itself. It has to begin somewhere, and it can happen if you are willing to make it happen.

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On another note, I've actually posted on my board about starting a reenactment organization for Landsknechts. I've thought of an Italian Wars Society (IWS) for the battles in Italy around Pavia. Many things are in the makes. It's just being limited by time, energy, and funds. But it will eventually get there

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My earlier post is an attempt to clarify definitions that get bandied about casually. In my own assesment of what I do, I do not measure up to what I consider living history, but I am continually striving toward that goal.

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As am I

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Tristan Wagner ]

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Originally posted by Brenna:
Something got everyone interested in pursuing a historically bent hobby, albeit to varying degrees of authenticity. The "dressing up" aspect catches most people's eye and interest first, what level they pursue it to comes after.

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I'd like to share mine. I've always liked the King Arthur tales and played D&D. So Renaissance Faires (in Florida at the time) were my first exposure to any sort of historical event. I started attending any and all Renaissance Faires I could find, where ever I moved to. Eventually I ended up in California where I went to a renfaire in South Lake Tahoe as a guest in a Scottish guild. That is wear I first saw a Landsknecht guild. I was intrigued because I never knew what the Germans did in the Renaissance. And I liked their flashy clothing and the cool looking arms and armor. Got to love the zwei-handers and fluted armor! So I got involved with them. I wasn't all that interested in historical accuracy at that time. D&D fantasy was my interest. But as I learned more about the history of the Landsknechts, and Renaissance in general, I started to really respect the "real" over the "fantasy". Real history was actually more interesting than fantasy. So, on the research train I went. That was 6 years ago. The group I initially joined up with was very non-historical. So I broke off and co-founded a more historically based Landsknecht guild. That was 4 years ago.

So, I did not start out being interested in history, but I ended up that way

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
Looking at the faires in our area (North East to Mid-Atlantic), none to my knowledge are Medieval. They are all Tudor of one stripe or another([b]notincluding Henry VII) and beyond.[/b]

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That's unfortunate. It's probably the case because Henry VIII and his big turkey leg are quite recognizable as Renaissance.

Out here, we have Tudor faires with Henry VIII, Scottish faires with Mary, Queen of Scots, and English faires with Elizabeth I. There is also a faire in Corona, CA that is based in Germany I believe. It has no ruling manarch that I know of. And they have both Landsknechts and French Genderarmes (sp?) who battle each other in a very well choreographed battle.

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Originally posted by Tristan Wagner:
That's unfortunate. It's probably the case because Henry VIII and his big turkey leg are quite recognizable as Renaissance.

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Don't forget his cheesecake-on-a-stick, pizza-on-a-stick, soup-on-a-stick, and waffle-cone-ice-cream-cone-with-fudge-sauce-whipped-cream-and-a-cherry-on-a-stick. Well, alright, maybe the ice cream cone isn't on a stick, but the orange ice-pops are on sticks. The turkey leg isn't on a stick cuz you can use the leg bone as a stick instead.

And why is anything on a stick Renaissance anyway?

The Tydders are an utterly repellant bunch of misanthropes, and it counfounds me that they are a topic of fascination for those with only the briefest overview of History. Other than Elizabeth, none died mourned, and were rather hated by most of the lords and commons in the realm. It took a whitewasher on the order of Shakespear to generate the myths peddeled to the gulable to this day.

In a way, it is entirely fitting that Renn Faires should be devoted to them. The world (and certainly the English taxpayer) breathed a collective sigh of relief with their passing.

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