When James and I decided to get a dog we knew nothing about Keeshonds. We decided that our house was too small for the kind of dogs I had grown up with (labs and shepards) and that we really wanted to get a dog that would be suited to our lifestyle and temperment. We needed a dog that would be part of the family, but that wouldn't get destructively bored while we were away at work. We wanted a dog that would be alert and a good watch dog, but that we didn't have to worry that he would take off a child's hand if we took him to an event. The more research we did the more it pointed to the Keeshond, and I can't say that it has been a mistake.

I wish I could say that I researched as well when Rory and I purchased Wolf but I can't We weren't even yet actively looking for a dog, but when that black and silver ball of fluff leaped into my arms from the ground, I was hooked.

We learned about his wonderful qualities afterward. I did become familiar with the political concept/tag of 'Jan Kees Hund' being the inspiration for the modern name when English enthusiasts decided Dutch Barge Dog wasn't quite romantic enough.

Wolf was exactly the dog you describe and ideally suited to our traveling lifestyle that often included apartment living. When we lucked into Misty several years later, our lives were complete. They had two beautiful litters of puppies that went to family and friends who had been hooked on Keeshonds just like Rory and I. We lost Wolf very suddenly last summer and I still don't remember him without tears in my eyes. Misty, who is about four years younger and not quite such a serious dog as Wolf, carries on his memory as do the now grown puppies in our friends homes.

Thank you for the links, I would like to find out if a Keeshond would be an "appropriate" canine companion for my 17th century English Royalist impression. My persona's father and brother served in the Low Countries prior to the domestic unpleasantness at home, so wouldn't it be fun to think one could have brought me home a Keeshond puppy? Just rambling thoughts, but something I will try to research further. I remember seeing something once about one or two being shown in Dutch portraits but I don't remember the time frame.

Brenna

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One thing we should all keep in mind is that modern breeds as we know them are by definition recent creations - especially with dog breeds.

Medieval people bred for type and intended use, rather than to foster a "pure" breed, and the sight of Medieval kennels would be a horror to Modern dog breeders (I come at this from the prospective of my family having been purebred dog breeders, AKC members, etc.) Most modern breeds claim ancient lineage - unfortunately the evidence doesn't support this theory. Books and literature put out by breed enthusiasts are really no more than propeganda to increase their breeds popularity. If they claim otherwise, then ask them for some documentation in the form of a pedigree stretching back 300 years or so - I assure you the pedigree will not be forthcoming.

Also having bread dogs for the AKC circut, I can assure you the type within a breed can change to a startling degree in the course of 10 or 15 years as different characteristics within the breed become fashionable. In example Afghans in the 70's had curly tails de rigure - now they are straight tailed and the features of the head ar more defined. German Sheperds - overbreeding to emphasise the sloping back to an unnatural degree have increased the breeds vulnerability to hip displasia.

The most common 'types' in the Middle Ages and Rennaisance were various sighthounds that resemble Greyhounds, whippets, and even Seluki's, Mastiffs, that range widely as well, looking anywheres from the Dog du Bordeaux look to Neopolitan mastiffs, and including types similar to Great Danes and English Mastiffs. Talbot hounds were another type that I believe is extinct, although I'm told various hound types resemble them in differing ways. Ladies had little puffball lapdogs as early as the 14th c.

I'd recommend a good look at a facsimilie like Gaston Phoebus's hunting book to get an idea as to what Medieval dogs looked like, but if you go into it with the idea your looking for modern purebreds, then you will be sorely dissapointed, and starting from a flawed premise to begin with.

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I very much understand and agree with your points about modern breeds. I try very much not to represent my dog as anything other than my companion that I happen to like to bring with me to events. My considerations in getting that type of dog were based solely on my modern lifestyle and needs, not on him as a medieval dog.

While I agree that the Gaston Phoebus Hunt Book presents a very nice range of working dogs, I think you have to look elsewhere for ideas on companion dogs.

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I think you hit the nail on the head, in that dogs tended to be of a 'type' common to a region. I also agree that 'breeds' in isolated areas, especially working breeds would probably be closest to their Medieval ancestors. Anything the AKC has gotten their hands on in the past 30 years or so probably bears no resemblence to the progenitors.

You know, thinking about it, a Heinz '57 variety mutt would probably be closest to the 'common' medieval dog - certainly the types used for companionship by the common man (so long as they weren't living in areas under 'forest law').

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Thanx
Ziad

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Mastiffs or their type have been said to go back to the Romans. So you could probably get away with a Neopolitan Mastiff or a Dog du Bordeax (Turner and Hooch; Some recent Mel Gibson movie).

In Gaston Phoebus' book of the Hunt, you can see dogs depicted that bear resemblance to modern breeds. I can see dogs that I would associate with modern Greyhounds and Salukis, Water Spaniels, Wolf Hounds, Bloodhounds, terriers, Great Danes, Mastiffs, etc...

I guess the next thing would be, the geographic location of your portrayal then pic a type from the region.

The above as soon as I have a house with a decent yard - knock on wood - later this year.

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check out this URL. It leads to the illuminated manuscripts of the Bibliotech Nationale. This link goes to the 15th c version of Gaston Phoebus' book of the hunt. The Dog section in particular.

http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman10/i5_0017.htm

Cheers,

Jenn

[ 04-28-2001: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Now I just have my beloved geriatric Lab who goes everywhere with me. At events when people ask me if she's a "period breed" I just say I have no idea what kind of dog she is, I just love her.

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Thanks again
Ziad

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I'm under the impression that the image of "large dogs circulating in the Great Hall rummaging through the rushes for scraps and bones" is a Hollywood creation.

I could, however, be completely off the mark here, as the more I think of it, the more I think I'm remembering seeing an early 15th C. feast scene where there are some suspiciously greyhound-like dogs circulating around the servers.

Does anyone have any hard info as to what type of dogs were kept specifically as pets and which type were kept specifically for working?

Try these links for more information about Greyhounds. http://www3.sympatico.ca/afghaned/origcrse.html http://pages.ancientsites.com/~missionaria_trinovantes/verdragus/quotes.html http://www.greyhounds-galore.co.uk/subpages/midages.htm http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/gallery/

We evil SCA'ers have done Greyhound coursing for years.

Just remember, if you are adopting a race track dog, they are kennel trained. That means you can't start by turning him loose in the house and expect him not to have accidents. You start by leaving him in the box and walking him at appropriate times. Then you enlarge his kennel into a room, then more of the house, etc. Eventually the kennel training becomes house broken with a minimum of fuss.

In reference to Keeshonds, I did some research over the weekend. Keeshonds are a Spitz-type. Spitz type bones have been found in archaeological sites dating back to the Iron Age and obviously as a domesticated dog, primarily in Northern and Western Europe. So a Keeshond can be very appropriate as a type in addition to a breed.

I used to catch the some thing about my Appaloosa being an "inappropriate breed" at events. Never mind that the Chinese had a spotted coloration, they were known as Blood Sweating Horses, that the tarpan of Hungary introduced striped hooves into the local population, that the Noriker and Pizgau of central Europe have roan, spotted and brindled coats and passed the coloration back through crossbreeding with Andalusians, Neapolitans, that 16th and 17th century Haute Ecole training manuals show horses with Cisco's coat pattern in woodcuts, etc. They would only see the color breed, not the history.

I think, sometimes, people get a little too uptight. There is nothing wrong with wanting and trying to be accurate but when it comes to our animal friends who are participating with us, sometimes people go a little too crazy.

Brenna

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Ah, but this is just the point here, Brenna! What is done or common in the modern world, or in the 17th C. doesn't apply. What was done in China, Hungary, Japan, India and the North American continent does not apply. What happened in the Iron Ages may or may not apply to both dogs *and* horses.

The people on this board ARE interested in the details of what was done in Europe in the 14th &15th centuries!

In your opinion the desire to be correct is "uptight".

In my opinion the desire to be correct is what I'm here for.

By visual accounts of the period, it definitely wasn't a common coloration in Europe, but I don't think that in living history someone can have their horse dismissed as not correct by coloration or breed else none of us would have horses. I know in certain ACW circles, there is one group that forbids Appaloosas, Paints, pintos (any other breed other than paint that has spots), and Palominos in their troop but I believe it is largely due to the fact that no one in this cavalry unit had one in the 1860s. Some ACW groups have impressive unit histories that give names and coloration and type of horses and who owned them.

I am in agreement with Gwen in the fact that just because it happened elsewhere at the same point in time or can be documented in a different place, doesn't mean that it occured in our chosen portrayal time and place (15th c Europe).

I am sure that there are dogs that looked like Keeshonds (Very cool doggies BTW-- I have met quite a few and each one was a bundle of affection and personality) so I have no problem with Mitake or anyone else bringing one to an event as companion animal. Nor would I take issue with Brenna bringing Cisco. On the same token, if I still had an Afghanhound, I wouldn't bring it to an event because I am pretty sure that they were not introduced to Europe or Britain until much later.

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Why not? Should I leave Chloe home because Labrador Retreivers are "not period"? Should I ask Bill to leave Sox home because he's Thoroughbred/ Quarter horse? Should Jeff sell Bella because she's 1/2 Morgan?

Of course not!

Instead of trying to *justify* whether a breed is or isn't period, the simple way to deal with this is to say "My dog/ horse isn't historically accurate" and move on to something more interesting.

In my experience, arguments over what is period and what isn't blows the mood more than just acknowledging that something isn't right and moving on.

Splitting hairs is a slippery slope that can suck the enjoyment out of reenactment. Should we all stay home just because we're modern people?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
Instead of trying to *justify* whether a breed is or isn't period, the simple way to deal with this is to say "My dog/ horse isn't historically accurate" and move on to something more interesting.

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Your first post seems to follow the first question, your second seems to follow the second.

Here is where I am coming from: I do NOT do 14th/15th century, I do ECW/17th century (in addition to SCA equestrian activities), therefore, documenting the progress and availability of my horse's coloration is rather important to me. I have been able to document his coloration (not his breed, I'm a paid member of the Appaloosa Horse Association and the International Spotted Appaloosa Association and I'm very well aware of the breed development and history) as appropriate for his usage. I personally wanted to know how a coloration that (according to what documentation is available) moved from the Far East to the American West. "Breeds" aside, coloration is in the genes, just like height, build, etc. I wanted to know how it got there and how I could apply it to the animal I was granted the extreme pleasure of owning, especially after I brought him to an LH event (that had NO posted rules about horse coloration) and was told to take him hide him/get him off the place because his "breed" wasn't accurate. Well der! No "breed" of anything is truly "accurate." I found that really odd, considering that breeds, etc can change greatly during a few years and what we really want is "type."

Sorry, Ginevra, your comment struck a nerve, one that has been sawed on before and exactly the same way. When I protested, I was told "We want only period breeds and an Appaloosa is NOT period. If that makes us uptight, oh well." No the "breed" Appaloosa is not period but the "coloration" of my horse and his "type" is. But it took me over a year of "proving" to get him accepted by people who couldn't get past the "breed" thing and couldn't be bothered to say: "Well, we don't recognize this horse as historically accurate, but horses would have been used in the situation, etc. so that is why he's here."

I have to say that LH groups are where I have met both some of the most knowledgeable, nicest people and where I have met some of the rudest, most narrow minded people. What's really weird is every once in awhile they are one and the same person.

Brenna

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I hardly think that what was being stated qualifies as a logical fallacy. I thought trying to be "accurate" was interesting and was one of the universal goals of a lot of the people here.

This is "me"... I am not dictating to people that they have to play it my way in the matter of animals. I simply said that I personally would not bring an Afghan to an event even if I still had one. I don't think that my statement infringes on anyone else's rights.

Why not an Afghan? It is a glaring inaccuracy. Perhaps no one else will notice but I will. I don't want to simply say that the dog is not "period". That is my choice and it is important and interesting to me.

Was Brenna's discussion of an Appaloosa color pattern really trying to *justify* her horses place at an event or was it a researched response to flak that she has taken from others at an SCA/LH event and it compelled her find out the history of the color and how it got from point A to point B? The color exists in antiquity in China and Europe, the breed didn't until the 1800s. Is it a big deal...No. So why are we making it one?

Taking a different path, what if instead of simply saying that "my dog/horse isn't historically correct", wouldn't it be more fun to find out the name of similar type of dog/horse and utilize it as an opportunity to educate on the types of "medieval" dogs/horses they had and the functions they might have performed?

But I digress...

quote:

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The people on this board ARE interested in the details of what was done in Europe in the 14th &15th centuries!

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Not to play Devil's Advocate, perhaps the topic is not relavent to the rest of the board, but this is in the Off Topic fourm.

[Edited from the orginal as I have had several days to think about it. ~J]

[ 05-03-2001: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ]

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Hey, AM! I've got a Kees too! He's 8.

Looks like your research pointed the same way mine did. Small house watchdog, good with people & no annoying yapping.

On the downside, he's not period for 15th C. Besides, the people who run reenactments here on the east coast don't allow critters. (Unless your daddy works for a local museum and knows the right people) Our Norman Camp wanted to bring a great Dane, a breed that resembles some of the dogs on (semi) period art such as the aforementioned hunt book - no dice. Even horses are not allowed at Jamestown. (unless your daddy....)

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Hey, AM! I've got a Kees too! He's 8.

Looks like your research pointed the same way mine did. Small house watchdog, good with people & no annoying yapping.

On the downside, he's not period for 15th C. Besides, the people who run reenactments here on the east coast don't allow critters. (Unless your daddy works for a local museum and knows the right people) Our Norman Camp wanted to bring a great Dane, a breed that resembles some of the dogs on (semi) period art such as the aforementioned hunt book - no dice. Even horses are not allowed at Jamestown. (unless your daddy....)

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That is because the only two "events" as such are MTA & MTT, and both are on historical landmarks. I was under the impression that Stoudtsburg would be more "critter friendly", at least regarding horses.

We simply need to organise some events ourselves. As there are already two timelines, I would suggest some 15th century specific events (ditto to the earlier crowd). If we look around and organise it ourselves, we should come up with a place and event that will allow appropriate livestock. Might I suggest PA/NY/NJ tri-state area as to be an in-between point for the New England groups (there is another one starting up here) and the mid-Atlantic groups?

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quote:

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Was Brenna's discussion of an Appaloosa color pattern really trying to *justify* her horses place at an event or was it a researched response to flak that she has taken from others at an SCA/LH event and it compelled her find out the history of the color and how it got from point A to point B? The color exists in antiquity in China and Europe, the breed didn't until the 1800s. Is it a big deal...No. So why are we making it one?

Taking a different path, what if instead of simply saying that "my dog/horse isn't historically correct", wouldn't it be more fun to find out the name of similar type of dog/horse and utilize it as an opportunity to educate on the types of "medieval" dogs/horses they had and the functions they might have performed?

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Actually you made the point I was trying to make, just better. My research was combination of gut response and then a real need to know. In my research I found out that rump patterned horses were available in Ancient China, that "frost" coat patterns were found on Hungarian Tarpans from prehistoric times to their extinction as a genus during the medieval period and many painting from the 15th century forward have horses of a "leopard spot" coat type. Though 18th century, it used to even be found in the Lipizzan. (As did many coat colors, the all white being something that developed later. Even today, unless one chestnut foal is born each year at Piber, the breeding season is not considered lucky.)

By doing my research I was able to say "My horse is an Appaloosa, a modern breed. However horses with coat patterns that very much resemble that of the modern Appaloosa did exist throughout history. Here are some examples."

I'm still fascinated by the genetic migration. The majority of the horses introduced to the New World, especially in the West, were brought by the Spanish. They were Andalusian in type and from that we have developed not only the Appaloosa (which means the genes are in Andalusians ) but Kiger Mustangs and Spanish Mustangs.

Knowledge and research is always profitable and EVERYONE can learn from it, whether they like to think so or not.

Brenna

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