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Author
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Topic: 15thC JoustingTarge/Ecranche Construction
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Rod Walker
Member
Member # 776
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posted 08-21-2005 04:25 AM
    
I was looking at this plate from the Beauchamp Pageant and was interested in the targe/ecranche pictured.  Any thoughts on what it is made out of? Wood or steel covered in leather/material or a combination of both. I am having a 15thC field harness made (circa 1475-80) with a stechhelm for jousting and would like to make a shield like those shown rather than use my standard ecranche. I had thought to cunningly glue and reinforce curved ply together and cover front and back with material and leather. Another option was to make it out of 1.6mm-2mm thick steel (no problems with the shape this way) and cover with leather and material. Not exactly sure what is the most period answer.  I am new to the late 15thC and have kinda jumped in feet first,,,,,, in a big way. -------------------- Cheers Rod
www.jousting.com.au
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chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4
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posted 08-21-2005 09:37 AM
Darn it, I answered on AA, teaches me not to come here first. Thomas is generally correct, excepting perhaps in thicknes of leather, and maybe in missing out on the layer of glue impregnated linen, and the birch bark I mentioned.AA thread: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=49392 [ 08-21-2005: Message edited by: chef de chambre ] -------------------- Bob R.
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Rod Walker
Member
Member # 776
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posted 08-21-2005 11:06 PM
Thanks Gents, I was speaking with a firend who has seen a few of these type of shields at the RA. Seems that they are shaped wood re-inforced with steel and covered in layers of leather, cloth, glue etc.He seems to think that they are built out of lots of bits joined like a jigsaw with joinery techniques to arrive at the complicated shape. I think I can make quite a good copy using this method. -------------------- Cheers Rod
www.jousting.com.au
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chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4
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posted 08-22-2005 11:55 AM
The ones I was looking at last night, which happen to be some of those at the MET, actually have more in common with dsaddle construction than shield construction. They are made of beech, carved and joined as a saddle, and I think it is horn rather than steel reenforcing the bulk of them. I would wager a days pay many if not most of them have sinew and hot glue at the curves where the joins are, to make the thing springy to an extent, to absorb more impacts.Traditional shields and pavises are a different technology, made from lighter wood, and intending to be a lightweight barrie for arrows, and an obstacle for swords - they would come apart in a few impacts (if not the first impact) in a 15th century joust with grappers and rests employed. -------------------- Bob R.
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Rod Walker
Member
Member # 776
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posted 08-24-2005 10:08 AM
Hi Bob and Jenn, any pics would be gratefully accepted  I will start on this after our 9 day show next week. I will make an experimental version first and then move on to the good version. -------------------- Cheers Rod
www.jousting.com.au
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Chevalier
unregistered
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posted 08-24-2005 07:38 PM
Hi all,In Leeds now, finally. Rod, you should keep in mind that this MS is post-1485, and if you're doing a harness that's 1475-80, this type of shield may not be strictly correct for that. Two aspects of this shield not seen earlier are the pseudo-"grand guard" shape similar to that used on a rennen harness. The other thing is that they're tied on, which may be an innovation not seen earlier. Just some things to think about. I'm actually surprised Bob didn't mention it. Jeff
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Marque Hit Chenor
New Member
Member # 858
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posted 08-25-2005 02:20 AM
Salut, tout monde,Jeff said [QUOTE]
" Two aspects of this shield not seen earlier are the pseudo-"grand guard" shape similar to that used on a rennen harness. The other thing is that they're tied on, which may be an innovation not seen earlier." The photo appears a little blurry online but is not the targe on the right attatched with a flaon bolt and not neccessarily strapped? Flaons were certainly in use at the turn of the C15th. The neck strap on the chap to the left appears to be his bevor strap dont you think? Marque
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Marque Hit Chenor
New Member
Member # 858
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posted 08-25-2005 03:20 AM
Marque again, Having just posted my last comment I remembered seeing this illus, and though I have'nt yet found this actual image I found another almost identical drawing from the same "Pageant of Richard Beauchamp" series that clearly shows four examples of the shields.
(Page 106, "Tournaments" by Richard Barber & Juliet Barker, Boydell press.)
These illustrations were drawn between 1450 & 1460 though they depict the joust of Joan of Navarre, queen of Henry IV, in february 1402.
Though the chronological authenticity of the details may be questionable due to the tendency of some artists to depict past events (ie;1402) with contemporaneous detail(1450), the style of ecranche must have been extant in the 1450-1460 time period at least (unless imaginative licence, unlikely considering his attention to other accurate details)
If the image is an acurate depiction of 1402 circa armour (unlikely and unproveable)then Rod, it maybe a little too demode' for your harness.
1450-60, the date of the drawings would make the ecranche only a few seasons out of style for your period harness. A not so dificult stretch if you were the nostalgic kind in your era.
I cannot get my scanner to work to post the photo, but if you dont have the "tournaments" book I have seen it regularly on Ebay.
Again the four shields visible seem to have no strapping and the central loops appear solid and jut out as in a looped metal flaon not loosly drooped like a leather loop strap.
Yours,
Marque
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Brent E Hanner
Member
Member # 44
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posted 08-25-2005 04:54 AM
I don't know why they dated that image with that date but it is miss dated in the Tournaments book.It is possible that the currently accepted date is not correct but the scholars who have worked with it seem pretty sure about the dating which is rare with most art manuscripts of this period. If you want to argue about the dating several of the images are here.
http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/controller/textsearch?height=9&width=4&startid=0&text=Beauchamp Brent
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Chevalier
unregistered
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posted 08-25-2005 05:49 AM
Marc,I think if you look closely at the tie, you'll see that it's a "point" with the knot in the center, the loop above and two tails of the lace downward. One look at the shoes primarily depicted in the MS should tell anyone that the MS is post 1485, as the trend was for broad toed shoes after that date. Points were the fashion pre Tudor. Many other MS's support that.
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gregory23b
Member
Member # 642
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posted 08-25-2005 08:51 AM
TJ that is a point! a looped point as Jeff rightly points out (pun there eh?) I have a poor photocopy of this at home and is almost certainly a point, especially as it looks like other points shown elsewhere in other MSS.Question, is is pointing a cover to the shield or pointing it to his arm? Also it is late 15th century in execution if the clothing styles are to be taken at face value. -------------------- history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!
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Rod Walker
Member
Member # 776
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posted 08-27-2005 07:30 AM
Thanks guys. As I want this kit to be as right as I can get it and there seems to be some dispute I will forgo using this design. There are tons of ecranche references that I can use from the 1470-80's that are unambigous.-------------------- Cheers Rod
www.jousting.com.au
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Marque Hit Chenor
New Member
Member # 858
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posted 08-28-2005 12:28 AM
Brent, Jeffrey, Rod et al, I'll not argue and concede to your better judgment. I was simply observing and postulating on what I could see and read on the one clear illus I had and the rather blurry version on the forum post.
I had'nt considered what seems to be a glaring misprint in the "tournaments" book and as I have just, these past few days made two louped flaons in brass and steel my mind must be louped on the subject of flaons.
The footwear certainly makes sense.
It just goes to show, nothing can be taken on face value and there is value in speculative corroboration. Rod, sorry for running you in loops on a wild goose chase. The goose seems to have flaon the coup and elooped with the ecranche. Cheers,
Marque.
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
I thought that it was dated C1480!!!
