I think that Jeffrey Hedgecock is probably the only person I know of who has as close to an authentic medieval saddle as you can get. It is a saddle of war and not a general purpose riding saddle.

From what I've seen, most of the folks, in the US, tend to have a modified modern saddle with a drape of some kind to hide it from view, a Portuguesa/Spanish Bullfighting saddle, or a modern saddle that has been made to look "medieval-esque".

I personally don't know of anyone that has Andalusians in the US crowd, at least not in LH circles. My husband and I have draft-x's as do a few others. Though the picture links aren't working in some cases, there's a posting (old) called "Show off your destriers. The link is seriously out of date as my horses are now 6 years old and some of the pictures were taken when they were 2.

I know some people who have had bits crafted based on extant bits, but can't say that anyone is using an actual one.

"On the bit": My mare has a natural head carriage that at least puts her forelock and nose on the vertical without too much effort on my part and impulsion from the hindquarters has never been a problem.

Jenn

My question re "on the bit" is because almost all contemporary illustrations show horses in this posture, even overbent (by modern standards), and the literature - such as it is - stresses the importance of riding in collection and control. Draft horses seem to benefit from the added balance afforded by gathering the frame together and getting the hindlegs to where they can be best used (result of proper collection). Just in case you're wondering, I'm not a dressage freak, but I do a lot of High School training (Spanish walk, levades, passage, lancade, tèrre-à-tèrre, etc.)with our exhibition horses and find they cannot get the balance until they have learned how to gather their bodies; collect in other words. I'd value everyone else's input here - I'm the only High School trainer in Ireland, and it gets a bit lonely in the land of "bash and kick".

Hmm, bona fide dressage queen here with some Living History interest thrown in. (I started out in American Civil War, now lean towards English Civil War, etc.) Otherwise I show (primarily for others as my personal horse was not purchased with the kind of budget my clients have) ALOT.

I have been lucky enough to ride Friesians, Andalusians and a variety of other horses in dressage. I have found that while the "baroque" horses do not generally have the extravagant warm blood style gaits, they tend to collect more naturally. As one of the European trainers I had a clinic with puts it: "They are born with their nose in the bucket." A horse with a shorter back and a naturally arched head carriage will collect much more easily and will carry himself in what the modern eye thinks of as a "frame."

I have often wondered whether the "on the bit" look of some illuminations/illustrations was artistic license or a reflection of riding fact. (Of course, this automatically discounts any woodcuts, etc. from ANYONE such as Dom Duarte, Pluvinel, Guerniere, the Duke of Newcastle, etc. because we KNOW those horses are supposed to be on the bit!)

No, I don't do high school, well-trained generous schoolmasters who let me do the cool stuff is about my limit

[ 09-29-2004: Message edited by: Angelique ]

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I was planning to get one made locally myself but after taking the $ into account and after seeing some Portugese saddles while in Sweden recently, I have decided to buy one of these instead. While they are not period replicas they are the next best alternative in my opinion.

We don't have many Andalusians in New Zealand but I do like the sound of the Irish Cob. Sounds familar to the Welsh Cob whcih we do have in some numbers here and if they were slightly bigger would be my first choice of horse for jousting. Unfortunately the Welsh Cobs here rarely break 15 hands. They are often crossed with thoroughbreds to bring them closer to 16 hands.

Baroque riding is also not present here although also while in Sweden I saw one of the Swedish riders do some very nice Baroque exercises during several of the displays I saw there and I will be definately looking at doing some training this style if/when it ever arrives down here.

[ 09-29-2004: Message edited by: Callum Forbes ]

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

I agree with you regarding Irish cob, I am a proud owner of one who I am currently "conditioning" i.e getting him used to shiny things and anything else that may spook him. They have a very affable nature, gentle and responsive. They certainly are chunky enough to bare the weight of an armoured rider, and fit what is accepted by some to be the optimum height, i.e 15hh ish.

With regards to riding "on the bit" nearly all horses portrayed in medieval illustrations are, in my opinion, over-bitted, and therefore behind the bit and resisting it. This goes for "civillian" and military uses. When you look at extant examples from the period this is not too difficult to imagine!

I agree totally with your opinion on the importance of collection; after all horses are "rear-wheel drive" so to speak, and bringing the quarters into use effectively would make them a lot more stable and provide a much more effective "punch" in a joust / strike. I'd be really interested to see evidence of high school / classical riding being introduced / re-introduced pre 17thC. Although illustrations show something that is akin to a classical seat, many other facets point to the style not being completely used.

I think that the illustrations tend to be indicative of fact and are reasonably accurate. They illustrate severely-bitted horses that are more often than not collected, not over-tracking and the rider's contact at times could best be described as "loose".

Sorry for the rambling opinion, but this is more than just a pet interest for me!

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike:
... I'd be really interested to see evidence of high school / classical riding being introduced / re-introduced pre 17thC.

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Federigo Grisone Gli Ordini di Cavalcare 1555. He is considered the father of the Neopolitan School.

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You are correct, according to their own history, the first record of the Spanish School dates to 1572. I think it is debated as to whether it developed in parallel or was an offshoot of the Neopolitan School.

There is also Markham Gervase (1607). I believe he was trying to translate Grisone's work before deciding to write his own. You'd have to do some digging to see when he started the translation. You might barely come in under the wire for 16th century in England.

For 15th Century England, I doubt you'll find evidence for any high school maneuvers. I've been researching for a while and haven't come up with anything "solid" for the Continent. Though Pietro Monte may provide some usuful insight into this area. But even if proof exists, you run into the caveat from a presentation standpoint, "was it done in my geographical location?".

Pictures (must be on a web server):
1. Copy the URL to your picture
2. Go to Fire Stryker
3. Click Reply to Topic
4. Click the "Image" button under Instant UBB Code.
5. Paste the URL in the window that pops open
6. Click okay.
7. Click the reply

or at setp 4 simply type:
[ img ]h t t p : // yourURL dot com [ /img ]

*spaces are here to prevent the code from activating.

Jenn

I've also always been interested to see just exactly when, or if, the 'Classical' style reached England.
It is a subject that, as the owner of a Welsh Cob 15.1hh and someone who prefers the Classical style to 'Pony Club' style, I'd love to know more about.

I'm also curious what style the Destrier guys or Jeff use and what the basis they use for it is.

One thing that made me wonder about this was reading a short article on the saddle of Henry V which includes (if I recall correctly) a more advanced construction than contemporary ... and even later, continental styles.

Different technology is often an indicator of different approaches to a problem ... I don't ride well enough, or know enough on the subject to say what was done ... but I'd love to hear peoples opinions.

I'd expect to see more 'advanced' techniques more widely spread on the Continent where the mounted warrior always had more prominence than England.

quote:

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I believe that Spain and Portugal are the last repositories of the old "educated" riding style, older certainly than the Spanish Riding School of Vienna (ever wonder why it is called "Spanish" riding?),

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Per the Spanish Riding School:
The Viennese Riding School takes its name from a horse race, which originated from Spain and was well known already in Roman times... "Caesar's brilliant white horse, which Spain sent him". It is after those horses, which (since 1580) were named Lipizzaners in honour of the "Marstall und Stuttery Lipizza" a stud farm near Triest.

I looked at the German language version of the site, and I believe the translation to English of "horse race" does in fact really mean "horse breed" but my German is very old and rusty.

Another interesting point brought up by the school is this:
Federigo Grisone of Neapels translated and worked on all these notes and wrote a book in 1522 "Ordini di cavalcare" (Textbook of Riding), which became a best-seller throughout Europe. Grisone taught a brutal method of dressage which filled every animal friend with horror. It was the "Ridingbooks" of Antoine de Pluvinel (1623) and Francois de la Guerniere (1730) which first refined the riding style and made the art of dressage more "humane".

Macha said:

quote:

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Anyone ever do any riding in Spain? Every educated horse ridden "Doma Vaquera" style there (as opposed to "Doma Classica", which is modern competition dressage style) goes in a fairly impressive curb bit, and the vast majority go very happily, I must say. Much lighter, more balanced and responsive than the poor snaffle-tortured creatures we see over this direction.

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I have to agree with you, the cruelty of a bit rests solely in the hands of a rider. While I have never ridden in Spain, I have seen the cathedral port spade bits used by Mexican charros. They are light of hand and their horses are light in response.

[ 09-30-2004: Message edited by: Angelique ]

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Sorry, too lazy to change from Bob's login to mine.

quote:

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Another interesting point brought up by the school is this:
Federigo Grisone of Neapels translated and worked on all these notes and wrote a book in 1522 "Ordini di cavalcare" (Textbook of Riding),...

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Angelique, just curious, to which book are they referring that Grisone translated and worked all these notes, or is that just a translation program turn of phrase?

The copy I have is from 1555, though there were several editions published and thought that one had been published as early as 1522.

While this second one is explained as being a capriole, it could very well be that the rider is in the country and is jumping a spot in the trail. Note the terrain beneath them.

If you don't have it on your library shelf, I recommend The Royal Horse and Rider by Walter Liedtke.

quote:

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Textbook of Riding - a best-seller
1572 - the time of the late Renaissance, in which the "rebirth of the ancient classic form of living" brought a re-evalutation of all values in the whole of Europe. Simple gothic culture with its humane spiritualization and universal God at the centre was at an end.

The important and the lesser important gentlemen of the 16th century set about discovering their near and not so near environs, to conquer, to procure absolute power and to demonstrate "ad oculos". Power in politics, power in court, power on the backs of noble horses.

In the search for worthy models for their style of life they leafed through old chronicles and found a time, dating back almost two thousand years, found Emperors of ancient Rome, Caesars, Patricians, the "Cavaliers" of classic antiquity. Learned humanists discovered sayings of Socrates, of Simon of Athens, of Plinius about a noble and ancient horsemanship, which was so very different to the awkward, peasantlike tournaments of the medieval times. They found a book "About horsemanship" written by none less than Xenophon himself (430 - 354 BC):

" on such horses gods are even portrayed. Men who understand the art of horsemanship, in truth look magnificent "

Federigo Grisone of Neapels translated and worked on all these notes and wrote a book in 1522 "Ordini di cavalcare" (Textbook of Riding), which became a best-seller throughout Europe.

Grisone taught a brutal method of dressage which filled every animal friend with horror. It was the "Ridingbooks" of Antoine de Pluvinel (1623) and Francois de la Guerniere (1730) which first refined the riding style and made the art of dressage more "humane".

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Here is the link: Spainish Riding School - English version

Really neat site...and I am so sorry for what I think is a thread hijacking

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That is an interesting thought, to what extent (if at all) would high school maneuveurs (sp?) be used in England, and if they were present at all how practical were they, especially in a combat situation? I think the schooling that went behind any of those would certainly help with a horse's balance and responsiveness.

It is also accepted that C15th soldiers were reading Classical texts on the structure and use of armies (however much they applied these principles the names given to his unit divisions by Edward I in the C13th shows this).

Why then did they not consider the the equestrian texts in a society based upon a mounted elite.
I have little to back thisup in terms of anything other than a gut feel that no-one has looked.
As you say ... noone thought they had veterinary manuals ... but they did.

So keep your eyes open.

As to the last question posed, I don't think anyone is saying that the riding art sprang into existence, indeed we do have Duarte's Book of Good Riding. So there is some discussion in the early 15th century on the topic, though, until someone actually translates it into English, we only have the little bits that people have chosen to give us as to what is really contained therein as far as horse training. I think Duarte was defintely addressing the rider and how to be a better one.

I think it is a gross assumption put forward by many modern scholars who do not have equestrian experience, that the Medieval and Renaissance riders were hamfisted thugs that didn't have a clue, purely based on the extant bits and the "cruel" looking spurs. Actually, I think they had a great deal of finesse for just the reason you cited, "you cannot just slap on a big curb bit and start hauling away".

If I can ever find that reference to the Italian nobleman, I will post it. It's an amusing little story on "looks can be deceiving and deadly".

I think the caution is, that while we can probably utilize classical dressage techniques to make us better riders and have well educated horses, we just can't say "Yes, emphatically, they did this type of training".

I now have Pluvinel's book, Markham's book and because I like him and he IS in my ECW period, the Duke of Newcastle's book.

All I can say is WOW! The details on the footfall patterns, the use of the "false rein"...OMG, these guys were into my sport way before I had any idea that it began. And as for the woodcuts, ooo la la!

As for my S.O's response when the credit card bills arrived...well, we won't go into that...

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Right now I'm in the process of training my new horse to the curb. I'm using a Pelham, and presently only using the bridoon rein just to get him used to the idea before moving on to adding the curb rein. Am I far off base with this notion? My other horses had, thank goodness, come already trained to the curb so I didn't have to "figure it out" as it were.

Per sharp spurs, the funny thing is that rowel spurs tend to be, on average, less "prickly" than the prick spurs (how odd! Imagine that!) I can run my rowels across my face with no discomfort at all, so I figure that it ought not disaccomodate the horse much if I can do that!

In the first post it was asked as to whether anyone rides authentic saddles: well, of late I've been riding a Portuguese saddle (a Portuguese one, not Indian) and I have become rather fond of it. It's not quite as deep as my old Buckaroo saddle (it's a 1910 or so, with seriously high pommel and cantle, but doesn't fit this horse all that well), nor does one gain the contact of the flat saddle, but it's pretty serviceable. Anyway, just to throw that out there that indeed, some crazy folks actually do ride in semi-period saddles, at least.

Thanks, and Cheers!

Gordon

[ 11-12-2004: Message edited by: Gordon ]

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