From the way I read this, a 12 year old, stunt-trained Friesian worth perhaps $25,000.00 to $50,000.00 + died?
A 7 year old $20,000.00 to $25,000.00 Friesian died?

What's up with this? Are these people killing horses through combat, stupidity, a trailer/transport accident, lightning strikes or something else legitimate (although accidental)?

My Friesian cost a bundle, (he's only 21 months old) but the fact that I love him like a child means I would never put him in a situation that would injure him. We have never had any horse injuries in the Knights of St. Denys (just a couple of dummies inadvertently falling off horses, myself included), so this strikes me as odd, although we are not professionals doing this every day. We don't "clash" with the intensity of a paid professional group, either. Even if we did, I'd buy slaughterhouse geldings rather than expensive breed horses. (Patty always slugs me when I say that - a horse is a horse & none should be injured, but a doomed horse saved for jousting has at least a chance whereas the slaughterhouse is pretty much a given.)

How frequent are horse injuries/mortalities in medieval reenactment or Renn. Faire shows? How does this accident rate compare to the different equestrian pursuits of hunter-jumper, cowboy, dressage, etc....?

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If they've (say) been in operation 10 years and have fifty members with an average of two horses each, it's a very different situation to the same mortality in a two years in a group of six horses!

We haven't had any horses killed or seriously injured in the five years I've been doing medieval re-enactment in the UK, as far as I'm aware, including among the jousting groups.

I believe one horse has died during another period show (heart attack in a reasonably old horse, which could have happened anywhere). I also believe another of the horses used for re-enactment has died off the feild, but don't know the circumstances.

Collic?

Genetic predisposition? I know that certain genetic traits good or ill can be passed down the line. Were these two Friesians related and if so, does that line carry a trait that shortens their life expectancy?

You could always ask what happened?

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Just a thought...

Many times, horses die or are euthanized for humane reasons that are unrelated to their sporting life. Colic, trauma, bones fractured while playing in the pasture and lightning amoung other things can contribute to equine deaths. Young horses (particularly fit horses) can be predisposed to a condition called atrial fibrillation. This condition is not often fatal if treated, but can cause sudden death during activities. Weakness in the wall of a major blood vessel can cause sudden death, and is a condition that is not easily detected by even the best equine veterinarians.

If you had a potentially fatal condition, would you sit at home and mope, or would you continue to live your life and enjoy yourself?

As for the value of the horses, that is quite a generalization to make. Good, well trained Friesians can be purchased for $5,000 to $10,000, or even less with a pre-natal contract. The Friesians that are worth upwards of $50,000 are formally registered and certified by the Friese Paarden Stamboek (FPS). Although there is a studbook that is called the "B-book," the breeding value of those animals is not as high as those recognized by the FPS as Ster or greater.

Deaths from colic, worsening medical conditions of many kinds (navicular, heaves, etc), because a horse injured himself in a stall, running through his pasture fence, freaked out in the barn aisle and fell over breaking his neck, allergic reaction to medications, care products, feed, trailering accidents, etc.

If you are curious, why not ask them? Age and part time use is not the only reason horses die.

Also, don't make an assumption on the horse's "value" either--not every Friesian is worth as much as you cited or they might have been Friesian crosses from some of the ratty unapproved stallions that stand to any mare. German association registered Friesians that were not allowed in the FPS or FHANA books are also much cheaper. Bottom line a horse is worth (forgive my bluntness here and I am a horse owner and lover)

• Whatever amount someone can get you to pay for them.
• .79 or so per pound depending on the region you live in

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There are "ways" to ask questions and not get the PR response.

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Originally posted by Seigneur de Leon:
however I blame the stable because 3 horses colicked the same night within a half-hour and were in adjacent stalls..

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That sounds to me like a possible hay contamination. It is known that certain hay and alfalfa is known to have problems where an insect infestation (when and after hay is cut) can cause severely toxic reaction and colic.

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Originally posted by chef de chambre:
What about the Australian groups on the board who do a lot of jousting. Have you all had any equine injuries of the like JF is talking about?

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The worst injury suffered by one of our jousting horses was when one of mine fell over in a borrowed float on the way to a camp. Injury sustained was some skin off her leg. We have the usual odd colic, caught in a fence, etc, sustained at home. They're horses, they occasionally do themselves an injury. We have never injured one through jousting or re-enactment.

Really, you would have to be very green and have no idea of what you were doing to injure a horse in the joust, let alone kill one. The training we put our members through before they are allowed to take part in running against another horse and man in the lists is to ensure that their lance control is beyond reproach. Of course, accidents can happen, touch wood and constant training, we haven't had any.

If you really want to know, ask them. You may get a BS, PR reply or you may get a perfectly reasonable one.

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(Bob Here). Actually Rodrick, I have seen you post your own training schedule on the Archive, and I think that in comparison (from my observations) your training would very much be the exception rather than the rule here in the States.

In the States, from what other experienced jousters post, for the most part training is a very seasonal activity. As a general rule they do not seem to make it a 7 day a week affair as you do, most do not own their own horses, and many have had little to no formal equestrian training outside of jousting.

If you have seen jousting in the States, the rule is very much that it leans toward pure entertainment, or in some cases an "extreme sport", and they are little concerned with History (most jousting takes place in Renn Faires, the setting of which make Grimms Fairy Tales seem like a historic chronicle of a Kings reign in comparison). Groups like Seigneur de Leon's own "Knights of St. Dennis", where an emphasis is placed on historic context are very much the exception rather than the rule. They also own their own horses, and when that factor is involved, a great deal more care is taken in my experience (having seen the treatment of 'rent-a-nags' at some reenactments, and the apparent carlessness shown of some mounts at Renn Faires).

Personaly, I have been involved in reenactment for near a decade now - not Medieval reenactment, where we are in our infancy in the US, but in the largest 'scene' for reenacment in the world by my count - ACW. In that era, at large scale reenactments, there can literaly be hundreds of equines involved (still too small a scale whan you have 200-300 horses in comparison with 30,000 reenactors on the field), in all roles from a cavalry role, to artillery horses, to officers mounts and courier mounts - and the horses are involved in actions that excepting the lack of death and blood can be just as chaotic, and nearly as noisey. Far more chaotic than a comparitively sedate joust, with two horses and two riders involved. I have heard of (and seen) some relatrively severe equestrian injuries (men thrown, men recieve sabre cuts, men clonked on the head - and of course they aren't wearing armour), but I have yet to see or hear of any severe equine injuries inflicted at these events.

For what it is worth.

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The worst injury we have had is a paddock one where one of our horses managed to tear off a shoe and in the process one of the nails pierced the hoof resulting in her going lame. This happened about a month ago and this type of injury typically takes about 6 to 8 weeks to heal.

It's not to say that we won't have an incident in the future but we train hard and demand a high degree of competence from our riders before they can go on the field or into the lists. Hopefully this plus a strong focus on horse safety issues will prevent such an incident from occuring.

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URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

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If you really want to know, ask them. You may get a BS, PR reply or you may get a perfectly reasonable one.

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It's now been well over a month and they haven't responded to either my e-mail, or my offer to post here.

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The Zingaro equestrian theater troupe was performing in Battery Park City in New York in 1998. Right after their performances were over the horse owned by their creator, Bartabas, a beautiful Freisan named Zingaro, developed colic and was dead within 48 hours. If anyone was going to lavish money on a horse, it is Bartabas, the man who flew his stable facilities in from France.

In fact he refuses to come back to New York, and is only performing on the West Coast, because he blames the death of his horse on New York water.

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Joseph

I've only lost one due to the sheer stupidity of the rider (novice) and the instructor who wasn't paying attention and familiar with this mare who had a tendency to drag her head too low when jumping. You guessed it. The mare got her head underneath and flipped over on her back breaking her neck. She had to be put down then and there. That day I vowed never to allow such a situation happen again if I had any say about it. And preferably not even if I didn't...

I've experienced a few shipping accidents (mostly loading and unloading) although we did have one large sweedish warmblood who decided to flip upside down while in a 2 horse bumper pull trailer. Dragging him out was an interesting experience...

Anyhow, that's my experience.

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Originally posted by Seigneur de Leon:
When you look at the Seattle Knights webpage, under members, then tributes they list the following horse tributes:
23 yr. old retired,
12 yr. old, died?!? (Gwenivere), a Friesian
7 yr. old, died?!? (Ladyhawke), a Friesian
29 yr. old, died (Shadow)

From the way I read this, a 12 year old, stunt-trained Friesian worth perhaps $25,000.00 to $50,000.00 + [b]died?
A 7 year old $20,000.00 to $25,000.00 Friesian died?

What's up with this? Are these people killing horses through combat, stupidity, a trailer/transport accident, lightning strikes or something else legitimate (although accidental)?

My Friesian cost a bundle, (he's only 21 months old) but the fact that I love him like a child means I would never put him in a situation that would injure him. We have never had any horse injuries in the Knights of St. Denys (just a couple of dummies inadvertently falling off horses, myself included), so this strikes me as odd, although we are not professionals doing this every day. We don't "clash" with the intensity of a paid professional group, either. Even if we did, I'd buy slaughterhouse geldings rather than expensive breed horses. (Patty always slugs me when I say that - a horse is a horse & none should be injured, but a doomed horse saved for jousting has at least a chance whereas the slaughterhouse is pretty much a given.)

How frequent are horse injuries/mortalities in medieval reenactment or Renn. Faire shows? How does this accident rate compare to the different equestrian pursuits of hunter-jumper, cowboy, dressage, etc....? [/B]

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