I also enjoyed your links as well, though the Destrier link brought me to a question which might be more properly addressed in the equestrian forum:

I notice that in the photo gallery they have riders slicing cabbages from posts. I have not found a Western European training reference for this activity prior to the development of the British Cavalry gymkhanas of the 19th century. If anyone knows of one, could they point me toward a reference? I have seen it done at Renn Faires, SCA type events and such. It's a great test of skill and wonderfully splashy when you have spectators but I would like to be able to prove it was done, mostly for my own peace of mind

Any pointers would be appreciated, thank you.

Ace

I have found no records that indicate that this exercise was used in medieval times and therefore it appears to be an anachronism. However as you say it is a great test of skill and popular with spectators (for more experienced riders we have put a small jump in so that the blow is delivered while you are airborne).

It would appear logical to me that there would have been some sort of similar training exercise in medieval times for developing the skill to deliver an accurate blow from horseback to a footman. However I'm unsure what this exercise was, and if it was similar to the modern "moor's head" (which I understand was a 19th century training drill).

--------------------

URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

As Callum has pointed out, I can't think of a single Medieval precedent for thecabbage/melon specific excersise. That said, the Stratgicon of Maurice mentions lopping reeds as a cavalry excersize. Of course this is hundreds of years prior to the scope of this board, and a Byzantine practise, but it is an example of a similar historic excersize.

I am sure that there had to be excersizes for swordsmanship on horseback for Western Europeans, but what the target precisely consisted of remains unkown to date.

That said, it is used as a means of demonstrating technique to the public that is not egregiously a-historical. The cabbage would hav been both commonly available across Europe, and cheap, making it an ideal disposable target - practicaly one could swill hogs with the remains so they would not be utterly wasted. They make for a dramatic effect when struck, and an adequate material to demonstrate on.

--------------------

--------------------

quote:

---

That said, the Stratgicon of Maurice mentions lopping reeds as a cavalry excersize. Of course this is hundreds of years prior to the scope of this board, and a Byzantine practise, but it is an example of a similar historic excersize.

---

I'm very familiar with the reed exercise from the Strategikon. I have in fact done it and was interested to find that it requires the same quality in a horse as good archery does--a canter/gallop that does not vary in tempo when there is no contact on the bit and a level topline. It does require very fine tuning as per what we could glean from the Strategikon some of the reeds used were only about 2 inches high. But as an exercise it is neither Western European or 15th century.

Callum said:

quote:

---

It would appear logical to me that there would have been some sort of similar training exercise in medieval times for developing the skill to deliver an accurate blow from horseback to a footman.

---

quote:

---

I am sure that there had to be excersizes for swordsmanship on horseback for Western Europeans, but what the target precisely consisted of remains unkown to date.

That said, it is used as a means of demonstrating technique to the public that is not egregiously a-historical.

---

This is one of the hardest areas for me when it comes to Living History.

Err too far in one direction and you are no better than someone in the SCA saying: "If they had it, they would have used it."

Err too far the other direction and you can become almost unreasonable in your expectations. IE A modern reasonable person who rides a horse, uses armor and edged weapons could certainly see that this practice is beneficial BUT do you throw it away because it is not specifically documentable for pure Living History purposes or do you use the reason that "it might have been done, doesn't offend anyone's sense of correct LH behavior and therefore we can use it as long as we either point out that it is not documentable or we are using it as something representative of a period practice for XXX time and XXX place."

This is a very hard line for me to draw? How do you determine the line? Chef? Callum? Anyone? I'm not being sarcastic in ANY WAY, this is somewhere I have trouble and I would really appreciate any input, insights, etc.

Thank you and be well,

Acelynn

[ 07-23-2002: Message edited by: Acelynn ]

For practice purposes, some/most of us would probably not throw it out the window as it is a good exercise. Even for feats of prowess on horseback before an audience, one does have to admit that watching a cabbage explode in a leafy display, is a real crowd pleaser.

However, if you were recreating a Rene of Anjou style tournament: I mean full presentation as it might have been, I don't think it would be appropriate if you couldn't back it up with a document either written or a few contemporary images that showed the practice.

A lot of times I think it depends on your comfort level and how far you want to or can carry the authenticity. If you hand a out a flyer for a public event, do you put in a disclaimer, make an announcement, or perpetuate a possible myth?

The question has intrigued me and since I've been looking at a lot of this type of stuff lately, I will see what I find.

Are you participating in a medieval LH group? Just curious as I thought you were primarily an ECW RE.

quote:

---

Are you participating in a medieval LH group? Just curious as I thought you were primarily an ECW RE.

---

No I'm not in a medieval LH group (though I am a paid member of the SCA *blush* who pretty much only goes for the equestrian activities), my background is more ECW, ACW, Buckskinners with an occassional CMSA event thrown in.

Ok, perhaps I should just admit it, I'm a clothes horse who loves to dress up BUT I am also an equine professional who endlessly and eternally fascinated by the things mankind has done with their horses since we domesticated them. The medieval time frame with regard to equines and their training has had a long tradition of Hollywood romanticism with a short tradition of available documentation. Thankfully, with new translations and a spate of books becoming available that is changing every day and it is drawing me in like a moth to a flame.

Long answer to a short question, sorry

Ace

"This is a very hard line for me to draw? How do you determine the line? Chef? Callum? Anyone? I'm not being sarcastic in ANY WAY, this is somewhere I have trouble and I would really appreciate any input, insights, etc."

This is a difficult problem to resolve and I go along with your “if is doesn’t offend a LH practitioner’s sensibilities and if we don’t try to pass it off as being period then we’ll use it” point of view.

I know that many groups use the excuse that “if they had it back then they would have used it” to justify their use of anachronisms. We’ve never done that. Our goal is to try to achieve as close a portrayal of a late 14th century tournament as we can. So our process is evolutionary. As our knowledge and resources improve we do our best to remove the more obvious anachronisms where we can and replace them with more historically accurate alternatives. Of course some anachronisms like our use of a tilt line are intentional as we think that the safe and efficient running of the joust is more important than being historically accurate in this case.

The cabbage on the stake is quite a minor anachronism and because we still have some have more obvious ones to clear up it is likely to stay for a while yet although I do like the idea of using a sharp on a bundle of reads as an alternative.

I also agree that nothing explodes better than a well-struck cabbage. Although not all of the public would agree with this. I recall a show a couple of years ago where a group of old ducks set up a picnic - blanket and all right on our outside barrier. The cabbage was set a couple of metres inside the barrier and Peter Lyon struck it so well that it disintegrated sending a shower of leaves into the audience including the picnickers who promptly packed a sad and left!

--------------------

URL=http://www.jousting.co.nz

Without AM to guide us at Ft. Mac, and using the football pitch the guys had been using, the idea of scoring goals and using huge kitchen spoons evolved, turning the game into a cross between football and lacrosse.

As I was removing the cabbage from the cold hamper, i thought to myself "Is it right that we do this? Would medieval people have wasted food like this? How can we justify this game to anyone who asks?", but I kept my questions to myself because I didn't want to be a wet blanket. Besides, I love playing cabbage ball!

Because Cabbage Ball falls into the same catagory as "Saracen Heads" -plausible but no documentation- I will be very interested to see what the verdict on Saracen Heads will be.

Thanks for some really well thought out answers. I think my personal opinion for a specific activity that is not clearly documentable will now be based on the following things:

• Will the public be in attendance?
• Would it be convenient to explain to the public the plausibility/possible existence of the activity?
• Use fair and good judgement as well as a sense of fun when deciding how appropriate something might be.
• Don't give up and keep looking for things to support your activity.

Callum said:

quote:

---

Of course some anachronisms like our use of a tilt line are intentional as we think that the safe and efficient running of the joust is more important than being historically accurate in this case.

---

That's one I can live with too. King Rene's book was a real eye opener--talk about a crush of armed riders, horses and footmen!

quote:

---

I do like the idea of using a sharp on a bundle of reads as an alternative.

---

It's not a bundle, it's a single reed per stand. And it's darn hard to cut and not bend them instead! But it is no where nearly as flashy as exploding cabbages

Ginevra said:

quote:

---

As I was removing the cabbage from the cold hamper, i thought to myself "Is it right that we do this? Would medieval people have wasted food like this?

---

Well, maybe this is somewhere that my above thoughts could come into play? Such as asking oneself

• Would my portrayal or group have had "extra" food available? (My thought is when there is an abundance of anything, some will be wasted--conspicuous consumption maybe a modern term but it is NOT a modern concept)
• Are the items we are using clearly available in the time period of our portryal?
• Is it a reasonable impromptu invention?
• If the above answers are pretty much a "YES", I think I would now go for it.

Thanks again for the input--I may have led us off topic a bit but this has been a great help to me!

I'll clarify and simplify the LH position.

As a visual demonstration of the capabilities of a mounted swordsman in showing the public, and for private practise, it would get done - with the caveat of telling the public we don't know precisely what was done for training.

In a demonstration/presentation of Medieval training techniques, it does not get done, because it cannot be documented. If we can document it at some future point, or we discover in some translation of a fechtbuch what was done - then we will implement the historicaly correct technique.

--------------------

Bravo Dominic, bravo!

BTW, the funds for our March 2003 trip to the UK is now safely in the bank, which means it -will- happen. Jeff wants to know if the offer to play with you guys still stands, and if there is anything happening in March. Unfortunately we can't bring either of the kids or the war saddle this trip .

quote:

---

i`m desparatly sorry to upset you all with our clear wrong doings!

---

I'm not upset at all and I kind of started the discussion! I was just curious as I knew the reputation of your group and was hoping someone had found some documentation I had not seen. Exploding cabbages are fun!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acelynn:
Exploding cabbages are fun!

Ace

---

This is something we are working on for later cavalry displays, where we shoot the cabbage with pistols and carbines and the cabbage explodes. Of course this is nice in theory, but we may have to stick to shooting balloons (way out of period I know) due to possible H&S problemsd :-)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ginevra:
The Red Company has recently adopted the La Maisnie game of "cabbage ball"; to whit, a cabbage is kicked around by a bevy of scurrying women until there is nothing left but the core.

As I was removing the cabbage from the cold hamper, i thought to myself "Is it right that we do this? Would medieval people have wasted food like this? How can we justify this game to anyone who asks?", but I kept my questions to myself because I didn't want to be a wet blanket. Besides, I love playing cabbage ball!

Because Cabbage Ball falls into the same catagory as "Saracen Heads" -plausible but no documentation- I will be very interested to see what the verdict on Saracen Heads will be.

---

Or does it.

"University students also enjoyed playing ball games. In 1476 the student and would-be cleric Robert Ross sought papal dispensation for an injury to his left eye. The injury had been caused by a cabbage stalk while he was playing a game with his fellow students - presumably a ball-game using a cabbage as a substitute for a ball. "

--------------------

Though I think throwing "sticks" at hay bales is much safer.

Jenn

--------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
Could you elaborate on the "stick game" a little?

---

Not without tracking down the reference again. I was looking at canons in England not sports.

Did not sauercrout originate in the middle ages ?
How else think you it chopped so finely.

Cabbages and turnips were staples long before Queen Lisbeth sent them off to the Americas to bring back potatoes, tomatoes and all those funny veggies to toss at toes in the stocks.

We English dont call Germans "Crauts" for their complexions.

Obviously, those WWW II helmets are undenieably medieval sallets. It obviously triggers memory in the collective human mind of medieval days of yore loping the old cabage with grandads battered helm aloft.

Besides, didn't that farm girl, french Queenie say "Let them eat cake"

What else are you supposed to do with cabbages during a revolution.

The C14th Belgians invented brussel spouts to combat the very problem of cabage slashers.

You could grow 20 on a single stalk at a fraction of the cost and labour.

And, when the brussell sprouts were spritely
sprat you still had a stalk to poke with a stick,

Hence, the continental origin of your subsequent delema..... the dreaded "Bundle of reeds" They were brussel sprout stalks.

Except of course in Wales...

The other most feared and loathed vegie of the middle ages was of course your houshold variety of "leek"
(yet another pre-potatoe-protuberance)
The smell, flavour (or lackthereoff )and offensive posture of this denizen of the dark ages was considered so disdainfull, unappetizing and downright offensive to god
that any member of society, church, peasantry, child or goodwoman needed little excuse to cut them in their prime with the nearest available weapon. Or in your case, the proverbial "Pointed Stick"

Besides, do you really believe medevellers were stupid enough to actually eat cabbages and leeks?

If you lived and slept 10 to the room with no watercloset, nor windows with your livestock beneath you, would you stuff yourself, your children and your animals with leeks and cabages every mealtime in a room with candles and not expect to inadvertantly reinvent dynamite seconds before high tailing it to heaven?

All in good jest.

Enjoy