--------------------

--------------------

[ 08-18-2001: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ]

--------------------

One of the biggest problems that this question will bring is the fact that if one goes by iconographic evidence, you cannot tell what "breed" the animal is and many accounts don't give you any description of the possible ancestory of the animal. There are some Northern European records that Andrew Ayton has supplied in his book and Chris Gladitz in his on Medieval horse breeding. These tend to end at around 1392 or so and usually give color and how much was paid for the animal and possibly what the stallion was turned loss with, like mares of the forest.

In the 15th c we know where some of the larger breeding centers were and which ones did exporting and to where.

The next issue is extant remains of said breeds. I am not saying that it is impossible, just that it is problematic. One of the best sites to excavate a medieval horse would most likely be Agincourt, but that "ain't gonna happen". The family that has owned the land (from the time of Agincourt) on which the battle was fought will not allow any archaeological digs. The site is considered hallowed ground. So other medieval battlefields must be identified to obtain bone material to do DNA comparisons. I forget which person it was (English burial site), but it is said he had his horse buried with him. I don't remember if anyone has tried to excavate this grave.

It is a project that one could easily spend the rest of their days documenting and proving.

--------------------

quote:

---

1) Arabian
2) Thessalian
3) Neapolitan
4) Barbary
5) Turkey
6) Spanish (Andalusian)
7) Sardinian and Corsican
8) Hungarian
9) High Almaine (German, south of Main)
10) Flaunders
11) Swethland (Swedish)
12) Irish
13) Friesian

---

There is some DNA evidence indicating that the modern Akhal Teke is directly descended from the Thessalian--to clarify that a bit--descendant as in archaological testing of horse remains from Thessaly. Akhal Tekes, Barbs and Arabians also share a common DNA background that go back to what equine archaeologists refer to as the "proto-Arabian."

Neapolitan, the name at least is preserved in the stallion lines of the Lipizzans. Lippizan breeding traditions have used the names of the stallion breeds introduced as part of their naming traditions. The first horses bred at Lipica were imports crossed with the native Karst horses. However, the stallion lines currently in use are: Conversano, black, a Neapolitan, born in 1767; Favory, dun, transferred from Kladrub, born in 1779; Maestoso, grey, a crossbred by a Neapolitan sire and out of a Spanish dam, transferred from Kladrub, born in 1819; Neapolitano, bay or brown, from another Neapolitan sire, born in 1790; Pluto, grey, of Spanish origin, from the Danish stud, born 1765; Siglavy, grey, an Arabian, born in 1810. Two other stallion lines which did not find favor at the Lipizza stud were perpetuated at other studs within the boundaries of the Austrian empire. The Tulipan (Croatia) and Incitato (Transylvanian-Hungarian) lines are still found in Yugoslavia, Hungary, and other eastern European countries as well as North America.

Arabian and Barbary horse were often used interchangeably (even in the modern era) to refer to two distince types of horses. The North African Barb and the "Arabian" of Asia Minor are two different types of horse with a common genetic ancestory. The Barb is one of the foundation breeds of the Andalusian.

Turkey, possibly a reference to the earlier Turcoman horse. Any Hyland says quite a lot about the Turcoman as it was well known in the East during the time of the Crusades. During the 18th century the horse known as the "Byerly Turk" was in fact an Arabian, so it is possibly that terminology may refer to either a Turcoman OR a "Northern" Arabian type OR possibly an early Akhal Teke type as they do share some common regions.

Andalusian--ah what a glorious horse! The Andalusian is a mix of North African Barb and Spanish Jennet types. DNA testing supports that and we have a great deal of historical evidence to show that the North African Barb arrived in Spain in great numbers during the Moorish invasion. However, they may been imported in smaller amount and types from much earlier on. The Romans were familiar with the horses of North Africa and the Iberian horses were horses of quality during Roman times as well.

Ok, I'm stating for a fact that I WILL NOT pursue Friesian discussions at this point. As for the others, I don't have a great many references to hand, though "Irish" horses have long been referred to as horses of quality. Ireland mounted most of the European cavalry during the 18th-19th century.

Hope this helps a little.
Brenna

--------------------

Sardinian: The islands off the coast of Italy were in the middle of the trade between Africa, Europe and Asia, so their horses were crosses between barbs and Arabians. The Sardinian first appeared in the 15th C. after Ferdinand of Spain (1452-1516) founded the stud near Abbasanta. He crossed with Andalusians, producing tough saddle horses with great stamina. They tended to be bay & brown, about 15.2 hh and good jumpers. When the islands passed from Spain to the House of Savoy in 1720 the breed was neglected, but in 1908 Arabians were used to improve the line.

--------------------

quote:

---

but in 1908 Arabians were used to improve the line.

---

Aaauugh! I HATE that! There were so many fine old horse breeds that got "improved" by the indiscriminate breeding in of Arabians from the 18th century on. Look what they did to the Welsh Ponies and Cobs! Grrrr.
/rant off

That being said, it actually makes sense that at least they used (what we hope resembles) an original breed type to help "re-develop" the breed.

And you are right, it's really hard to find good reliable horse breed information prior to the 17th century.

I am currently participating in a spirited discussion on another list about the Boulonnaise horse. Someone put forth the idea that since there is historical proof that Eustace of Boulogne offered his horse as a remount to William the Conquerer during the Battle of Hastings and according to "breed tradition", Eustace's family were the first breeders of the Boulonnaise, that meant that Boulonnaise horses were at Hastings. Hmmm, ok, I accept that a horse from the Boulogne area might well have been Eustace's mount (barring the possibility that he had actually imported/purchased his war mounts from somewhere else) BUT to say his horse was the same as the modern Boulonnaise horse is a big stretch of logic.

Tough area of study, there is no doubt about that!
Brenna

--------------------

--------------------

The Mongols ruled half of the world at one time and they did it mounted on shaggy little steppes ponies that were between 13-14 hands. That makes large pony in the modern definition of the term.

The desert so-called horse (as Ewart's Type I-IV) were a lighter smaller type, some with a genetic abnormality. (They were missing one or two vertebrae, something that is still found in most, but not all, of the modern Arabian horse) The Type I-IV also range in height from a small pony height of 11 or so hands to a large pony type of 13-14 hands. Surviving Ancient Greek art (though of course later than Ewart's work--he's a paleo-zooarcheaologist) also illustrates the shorter types in the area of Asia Minor.

Some even later Byzantine records for the mounting of the cataphracts do speak of the "massive" Nesean horses. "Massive" is a relative term, apparently some of them reached the 16 h range. However, the Neseans were of a slender build and are believed to have possibly been a primary foundation type for the Akhal-Teke. The Akhal-Teke is a horse with the Ewart's Type I-IV desert build but the Ewart's "Forest
Horse" (can't remember the "type"). Forest Horses are a larger, heavier boned type that contributed to the development of several equids including the now extinct (though modernly "recreated") tarpan of Hungary.

Ok, wow, I have rambled. I think, however, that is important to remember that height and usage is relative.
Brenna

--------------------