I know about the more famous ones, King Francis taking the lance in the eye, etc. but what about "normal every day" types of injuries.

I have "heard" that back injuries were common due to the high backs of tournament saddles. (The ones that scare me are the ones that lock, better to come out of the saddle than break your back over the cantle)
However, I was wondering if anyone knew of some good sources for proof of that. Common sense coupled with knowledge of impact seems to say that would happen BUT we've had that discussion before. Any good source ideas?

Brenna

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Saddles by Russell H. Beatie
University of Oklahoma Press / October 1980

has a reference to a rodeo saddle which is banned because it locked the rider into the saddle and there were too many injuries of the type you are referring to. The book includes a photo which looks frightingly similar to some jousting saddles. Draw your own conclusions!

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: jcesarelli ]

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Joseph

Thanks,

Jenn

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Joseph

So far I have only found references to knights and squires being killed or injured at tournaments, but reasons were not specified. Even one of the Batard of Burgundy's horses was a casualty at a tourney.

One account in Barber/Baker's book of the Tournament pg. 54 states that in 1241 in Neuss, some sixty knights and squires died of suffocation from the amount of dust that was kicked up. Then again, being that there was an anti-tourney sentiment at that time could have jaded the witnesses account.

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I'm going to keep looking, I'm interested from a number of standpoints both modern and medieval.

Brenna

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fire Stryker:
Joseph, I have this book, which picture are you referring to?

Thanks,

Jenn

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Jenn,

Speaking of Jousting injuries, I know I said I would'nt respond until Monday, but my wife and I were practicising for the tilt on Saturday, and the horse she was on bucked at just the wrong time and she may have a torn ligament in her arm. I have to go to the doctor's tomorrow, so I am posting this response now.

In my copy of Beatie One of the photos of what are termed 'freak' saddles is on p. 83, fig. 13.9. The other, which is the one that I was specifically referring to is the T. Flynn bear-trap saddle(the name give you any indication if the problem!) on page 99, fig. 16.4.

Hope this helps.

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Joseph

The name sounds more ominous than the saddle appears, but then again appearances can be deceiving. That backward V'd fork definitely would make it tough to get out of if your horse was going down.

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The reason I ask is, I wonder if the back injuries might be caused by a combination of armour type and saddle style. The folks here who actually knock sticks with another horseman might be able to give a modern review.

Speculation: It stands to reason that if a knight were wearing maille and had a high cantle that he might possibly injure his back if his opponent struck with enough force to knock him backward against it. Maille is flexible. Though protecting an armoured knight from sword blows, it is not overly effectual against crushing blows or concussive ones.

A knight in plate where the back plate comes down to the lower back in combination with a high cantled saddle might seem to be more preventative of back injuries because of the support and the more rigid structure of the plate.

Just a thought while folks are looking for entries about "period" injuries.

Cheers,

Jenn

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I have never had a back injury due to impact in the saddle, and the couple of times that I have been unhorsed during a tilt, no lower back injury occurred.

I joust in a Stromberg breastplate with a full backplate.

Most of my injuries have been to my hands and forarms, and those have been concussive injuries from impacting the bell on the lance at the hit., no matter how well padded the bell is and even with metal gauntlets and vambraces.

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Joseph

My understanding also is that tilting armor was also quite different than a field harness. Please correct me if I am wrong in that aspect.

quote:

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Most of my injuries have been to my hands and forarms, and those have been concussive injuries from impacting the bell on the lance at the hit., no matter how well padded the bell is and even with metal gauntlets and vambraces.

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Makes you wonder if a man on the tourney circuit might not have developed a type of carpel tunnel syndrome? As possibly so did armorers?

Brenna

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I've thought a lot about the matter of high backed saddles and injuries, and the thought of being caught in a saddle as the horse falls or being bent backwards by a lance hit, worries me. I generally ride in a stock saddle, similar to western riding saddles, and it at least gives the option of bailing out while giving good support.

With combat in the field before the introduction of the tiltline in the early 1400's, direct (rather than angled) hits were a distinct possibility and had tremendous force. Practising against a shock quintain, I can feel a significant difference in the force between the two hits.