There is one view that says that you should have everything as close as you can within reason as long as it isn't dangerous or prohibitively expensive to a point where an upper middle class person couldn't afford it. Mail is all rivited apropriately, long bows are all made of yew, furniture is oak, clothing is right down to the cut and minute details.

Then there is another view that says that its more important to get the overall down first and then improve into the details. Butted mail is ok for starting out with because you need the mail shirt. The bow looks more or less right but is made of oak and draws alot less weight. Your furniture is made of pine and stained but you have something to sit on. Your clothing is more or less right a few details may not be correct, you may not have hand finishing everyplace you should and have pleating instead of a period cut but it looks more or less right.

I have returned to re-assessing my impression and I am trying to choose a direction. So convince me which camp is better and why. And don't assume that you know which way I'm leaning cause I really don't know which side I agree with. Or if your bored play a devil's advocate and argue the side you don't agree with.

We've discussed this before in these forums, but I will summarize again:

1) Are you in a group? If your group has standards, then your base level of detailing will or should be predetermined. It is your group that needs to decide to what level and to what detailing it's striving for.

2) Who is your audience and how responsible/accountable are you? If you are doing this recreationally (and by this I mean as a pasttime / hobby), then how committed to it are you? If you are doing it with goals or interest in informing the public and putting on presentations claiming to show the public how life was, or how things work such as putting on and wearing armour, then you have accepted a responsibility to try and do it correctly. Admittedly some half ass this and cut corners, and frankly, should be constructively coached to improve their standards particularly with regards to basic standards such as clothing styles. (Or just taken out back and flogged.)

This has nothing to do with the individual thus far.

Now as to deciding from the individual standpoint... This is going to depend on what they can afford. If I were to start a group, you need two things. Stuff and people. If you make the details so high and unreachable, only the affluent will be able to afford it. And right now, few people make it available for sale. Hence, few people who will have it. But this does not mean that I'm voting for the less detailed side.

As a group, we need to help and coach new members. Successful recruitment means that the group wants new people. It then means that the group has to have the means to help people start and be involved. Loaner gear. A single box for stuff. Perhaps a loaned weapon or two. A belt and a pouch. How do you recruit someone if they are required to have the clothing and equipment in order to interract and join in just to see if they like it?

Here's a perfect example of choice in detailing. With all the kitchen items, my clothes, growing collection of armour pieces, etc., I have added up that I need 14 (yes 14) various sizes of chests. While I would like to be able to afford the very best, I cannot afford making all of these out of quartersawn white oak and ship them down to someone like Patrick to do the hand ironwork. (Not to mention that wide quartersawn oak is in serious short supply right now and the price climbing...) And, realistically, some boxes were not all of oak and some where of very simple design. So my choice is this. A few special chests for clothes will be of a fine grade, the rest, which will be usually hidden from view anyway, will be of select pine and kept simple in design.

As to primary items such as bows. I like John Howe's approach to weapons. If you are not trained on the weapon, you can't have one. If you are an archer, you need to be able to shoot. If you are a halberdier, you need to know the basic drills. If you have a sword, you need to have some basic training. This is from a group perspective.
So, with a bow, you have to learn to shoot. Go buy a modern recurve, go to your backyard or range, learn to shoot. Then, if you are ready, buy the right bow and not some cheap immitation in the wrong wood and wrong shape. Using modern arrow shafts is one thing. Using modern archery items such as plastic nocks is another.

I guess, my simplified opinion is this. Are you going it alone? Or with a group? And are you doing this for yourself? Or are you trying to impress or influence someone else? (Like the public.) And is the public going to see and interract with you at events?

Is armour with the basic shape and style correct acceptable? Then start where you can such as with MJ Armouries / BestArmour. (But get the right model!) If you can get on Jeff's or Mac's waiting list. Great! But, if you are going to that level, then the rest of your items should match as it will look out of place. Then, years down the line, if you want and have the opportunity to upgrade, go for it!

I also think your group has a responsibility to be involved and help coach you reach and maintain some standard. Not just comment on it.

My 2 pfennig...
FvH

I also like to push a build-up approach. Rather than start with a half-assed high-end portrayal, it's better to do a high-quality low-end portrayal and work your way up the social ladder as one can afford to upgrade and acquire the proper ammenities.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff Johnson:
Rather than start with a half-assed high-end portrayal, it's better to do a high-quality low-end portrayal and work your way up the social ladder ...

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Amen!

So a portrayal of a low end commoner with cheap wool and linen clothing using wood dishes and horn spoon sitting on softwood furniture is appropriate. A knight with plain pine chest, tinned brass spurs and no servants is not.

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i joined greys last year. was told it had to be this way or nothing... never really met any of the guys etc just made my stuff and showed up (according to their standards) had one of the best kits at the event hehehee

now that i have 2 full soft kits i am going up the ladder this year. i am adding a upper gown to replace livery vest when not on the field, as well as adding armour. i am starting with a jack and then moving to a brig. then hopefully sometime down teh road steel breastplate. its a progression, but i'm doing it right the first time so it lasts as long as i reenact... not half-assing it all the way thru.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff Johnson:
I also like to push a build-up approach. Rather than start with a half-assed high-end portrayal, it's better to do a high-quality low-end portrayal and work your way up the social ladder as one can afford to upgrade and acquire the proper ammenities.

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I agree to a certain extent, but I'd like to clarify. If you know that riveted maille is your goal, I don't see the point of buying butted maille. Save your money. Surely there were people without any maille. Portray one of them until you can afford the right stuff. I just don't like to see people spending their money on things that are wrong and then justifying their purchase by saying, "This is all I could afford." No matter how short of funds, everyone can afford to not buy something, if you see what I mean.

With clothing, the "step up" approach works much better. If you cannot afford to make a fur-lined gown, you don't have to. For the lower classes, the undergarments of the upper class were their outer garments, by and large. So you can upgrade to a more noble impression later simply by putting on the fancy upper layers.

Of course we all have our personal obsessions. I could care less if the camp equipment is made from the right wood or constructed in a period manner. But if my seams aren't handsewn with the same stitches found in extant pieces, I would die of embarassment.

So I guess what I'm saying, Brent, is that I take that's personally important to me from the accuracy end and the rest from the mainstream end, as Friedrich puts it. The longer I stay in this century, the more I can improve the mainstream end. But I don't know that I'll ever truly care about some things.

quote:

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Originally posted by kass:

So I guess what I'm saying, Brent, is that I take that's personally important to me from the accuracy end and the rest from the mainstream end, as Friedrich puts it. The longer I stay in this century, the more I can improve the mainstream end. But I don't know that I'll ever truly care about some things.

Kass

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You have the luxury of not needing to care about things which to you are incidental, like furniture, because I have some small knowledge thereof.

Those who are in this alone need to have some knowledge of damn near everything, if for nothing more than avoiding getting screwed by shady (or clueless) sutlers. For example, there are those who have a minute knowledge of armour, but wouldn't know an authentic stitch if it was done to keep their leg attached.

I think it's important to get the right stuff right off the bat. Why screw around wasting time, effort, and $$$ on crap? If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well (read: accurately). And if one wishes to do something badly enough, one will wait until one can assemble the appropriate kit; it's like saving up for a new bike when you were a kid. I have no problem with people using loaner kit for a year or so; in that time, the newbie should have ample opportunity to assemble at least soft kit and eating utensils, if not armour and a complete camping setup. Hell, I've been reenacting for a while now, and I *still* don't have a totally-authentic camp.

That said, I also agree that if there are places to camouflage shortcuts, then camouflage the shortcuts. Take furniture, for example. There is no way in hell I'm gonna make anything for my living history camp from quarter-sawn oak or any other hardwood, for that matter. Why? Because I have to carry loaded wooden boxes to and from my car, and carrying thirty pounds of gear in a box which itself weighs thirty pounds is just plain stupid, when I can make the same box out of much lighter softwood and stain it to look like walnut. If I were doing a stationary display, I'd definitely use the appropriate hardwood (if I were kitting out a room in an historic house, for example), but not for outdoor camping use.

but why not bob? steve and i have it hehhehehehhe neener neener neener

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Oh, yeah, lemmee add when you do the higher-end, be sure to keep smart-assed newbies in their place (like that ba$tard Chuck, with his oak bench and better clothes than mine).

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