Inspired by Mitake’s frustration, please allow me to ramble a bit about the medieval aesthetic, the modern aesthetic and how I feel both relate to contemporary women’s clothing and costumes.

Modern American style is all about BREASTS and to a lesser extent, legs and bums. Most modern women’s clothing is cut to reveal cleavage and legs and cling to the bum. I direct you to look at the cover of any magazine on the newsstand, or watch 10 minutes of TV. I have no sexual interest in women, yet I find myself mesmerized by other women’s breasts, because their clothing and undergarments exist to call attention to them. All the lines of the clothing point to and accentuate the bustling. Princess seaming exists to give shape to the garment to accentuate the breast and skim over the hips without making the figure disproportionate to a modern eye- you don’t want to look TOO hippy after all!

On the other hand, 14th & 15th C. clothing / style is about small waists, broad hips and necks. Everything is vertical, slim and elongated. Necklines are very wide to show the neck and collarbone area, waists are slim and hips are broad. The nape of the neck, collarbone and waist are the areas of sexual interest. It’s a fact of life that women who have been pregnant and have nursed children have softer, squishable breasts that ride lower on their ribcage. Since we’re talking pre-Wonder Bra here, when a gown is pulled over the bust, the weight of the fabric presses on the breasts and flattens the shape, making it very softly rounded, like Italian export armour. Breasts are not sexual objects, they are a functional result of motherhood. Even in the Fouquet painting Nikki cites, there is nothing sexual about Mary’s exposed breast- it’s there as a prop to reinforce motherhood. The sexual reference in Fouquet’s Virgin is her impossibly small waist and the vast expanse of creamy skin around her neck and bosom. In van der Weyden’s “Deposition”, Mary Magdalene wears a skin tight bodice like Fouquet’s Virgin. There is no cleavage involved, but we do see the nape of her neck where her veil is lifted. She was a whore after all, and this blatant display of an area of sexual interest reinforces that fact just like the Virgin’s breast reinforces her motherhood. The aesthetic is actually more Japanese, (although there is no connection, it is an interesting parallel) where the nape of the neck is erotic-geisha wear the collar of the kimono pulled down in the back to expose the nape of the neck, and the bosom is nearly completely hidden by the obi and layers of kimono.

Your frustration with those who “refuse to move beyond” lies with the fact that your modern acquaintances cannot apply the medieval aesthetic to their medieval costumes. Modern women cling to the modern aesthetic and demand uplift, shape and separation in the shape of their bodices. A push up bra creates a very modern shape that’s just not right, and you notice it. The look is completely different than what you see in the medieval paintings, and it strikes you as “not right”

It may help you to realize that from the time we’re young, American women are programmed to respond to the style so we can compete in the man-market. To be acceptable, we have to conform to the prevailing style. Some women can ignore cultural pressure and walk around with soft, saggy breasts, a wide waist and their hair covered in an effort to be historically correct. Most women can’t. The same women who will choose a modern pattern because they feel it is more flattering are the same women you see in the bathhouse at Pennsic shaving their legs in the sinks, blow drying their hair and applying makeup. They want to look and feel attractive, and the only way they can do that is by conforming to the modern styles and fashions they’ve been conditioned to respond to.

Don’t be frustrated. The ones who are more interested in recreating history will learn to deal with and/or appreciate medieval style and wear historically cut and fitted clothing. The ones who cannot put historical accuracy first look at what they wear as a costume intended to make them look exotic and sexy. They won’t wear a historically correct garment because they feel it makes them look “ugly”. I deal with people like this all the time (men who cannot bring themselves to wear hose are the counterpart to these women) and the latter group can’t help their response as they’ve been brainwashed. There’s almost nothing you can do about it and very little to be gained by fretting about it.

Just my 2d

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I shave the back of my neck and around my ears so no hair shows when I wear my coif- does that count?

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Does it ever! But if anyone is considering plucking - be advised to do so carefully, over a period of time. I know of someone who decided to pluck her hairline in one evening - and ended up with a section of forehead that was bleeding. (being told that story, I never attempted it myself!)
-Gina

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Just kidding.

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[ 09-01-2004: Message edited by: Martin ]

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Originally posted by Seigneur de Leon

Interestingly, at this same time, men began shaving their heads and oiling the remnants of what was a mark of virility, a full head of hair.

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Originally posted by hauptfrau:
Mitake: [i]

Breasts are not sexual objects, they are a functional result of motherhood.

Gwen

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Agree totally with you on the clothig styling and what was sexual.

But there are clear references to breasts being sexual organs in later fifteenth C visual literature. I have just come across a woodcut of two well dressed ladies (well they are wearing fine head-dresses) but are topless and a man is having a bath. Also on the cards that you have there is a woman fondling her own breast.

So maybe not for the idealistic higher brow aspiring person, but certainly for everyone else. It strikes me as the usual conflict between idealism and earthy realism.

As it so happens I am looking out for any clear examples of medieval erotica, preferably mid to late fifteenth, if anyone can point me to the right source I will be grateful.

[ 09-24-2004: Message edited by: gregory23b ]

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