Was furniture traded like armour, glassware and pottery, or was it just too bulky to be a cost effective export item? I'm familiar with trade records for all sorts of things, but have not seen evidence of any sort of international trade in furniture.

Any clues in the historical record?

Are there any other sources that might yield clues?

Beyond that we can look at inventories. From the York inventories I found 7 Flanders Arks, 8 Flanders/Flemish chests, one described as small and another described as old red chest of flanders work. And a chair of Flanders work. While I didn't look for English work as it is not index I did come across an entry for two chairs made in English style. So those arks/chests support the already seen evidence that chests/arks/coffers were being imported to England from Flanders.

So import/commerce records and inventories can certainly shed light on the subject but other then that art is your best choice. Just remember that art is problematic so you will want to use it cautiously. Find out what styles are prevelant in what places and see if there is any cross over.

My guess is that you won't see muc as radical as Italian furniture in England but you might see things like Northern Italian furniture in Southern Germany.

But the self same import lists then battery being quite common, battery was beaten metal ware, pewter, brass, bronze etc.

It would seem that imported finished items were quite common. As for vernacular designs, well why would a country joiner be making things in a particluar style? is he influenced by what is trendy or not has he been asked to produce it in the trendy style?

tricky one

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Likewise, the boundary between Italy and Germany was porous, and we often see textiles, armour and other goods moving between those two countries.

Following this line of reasoning, I don't find much of anything moving between Italy and England except textiles, where significant amounts of cotton and silks are traded. Oh, and maybe some glass. Textiles and glass are relatively compact trade goods, furniture is not. Is there an established history of trade in furniture between Italy and England?

Gwen

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Originally posted by Ginevra:
...between the Lowlands and England...

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Just making sure... Are you refering to the Lowlands (Scotland)or the Low Countries (Holland)?

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I looked in the IMB and did not find anything on English/Italian or even Low Country/Italian furniture trade. There are probably some decent books on trade between Italy and England and/or the Low Countries which would make a good place to start if you really want to pursue it, more then likely unless there is a large trade in it but if you want the needle in the haystack it should point you to the sources that might give it to you.

Hardly one of the profound mysteries of the age, just something that made me go "Hmmmm.......".

Oh, and I fixed the confusing bit about the Lowlands/Low Countries.

WOuld an Englishman be using italian furniture, my question would be what kind of englishman?

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Bit conjectured at the moment, although something is nagging at me.

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That line of reasoning doesn't go so far with me, I like to see physical evidence, either visual or written.

Brent's comment brought up another line of thought-

if someone visited Italy that maybe they brought back furniture or maybe Italians brought furniture to England with them and gave a piece as a gift or some such.

Do we have evidence that medieval people travelled for fun and collected souveniers along the way (visited Italy and brought back furniture)? In a xenophobic society I'm thinking the idea of "taking one's holiday abroad" is a later phenomenon, although aquiring souveniers might not be.

Then again, "foreign" goods may not have had as much cache' with a member of xenophobic society as it did later. I mean, the Victorians were mad for mementos of their travels, but that doesn't mean medieval people were, and even the Victorians mostly brought back little tchotchkies from their travels rather than furniture.

How much socializing did various aliens do with the indigenous population, i.e. would an Italian have had a high born Englishman as a close enough friend to be gifting them with furniture? My reading leads me to believe that the various immigrants were mostly tradespeople and artisans who clumped together and pretty much kept to themself socially.

I assume you didn't mean me. I mentioned commissioning by the wealthy not a random "let's do it foreign kind of thing" ;-)

"if someone visited Italy that maybe they brought back furniture or maybe Italians brought furniture to England with them and gave a piece as a gift or some such."

er yes like that.

Gifts were given and received, but are we not talking about furniture here, something rather substantial, you don't just mean a box do you Gwen.

"Then again, "foreign" goods may not have had as much cache' with a member of xenophobic society as it did later"

The London import lists would disagree with you:
pewter ware, hats (by the huge great shed load), playing cards (Germany),shirts, armour of course. All things made abroad and to local styles and methods.

We imported everything (in addition to home production of course) and exported wool.

"would an Italian have had a high born Englishman as a close enough friend to be gifting them with furniture? "

If the high born was a medici banker and the Engishman a wool trader wanting to set up a factor in Italy then possibly.

This is a question of rank.

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g23b said The London import lists would disagree with you: pewter ware, hats (by the huge great shed load), playing cards (Germany),shirts, armour of course. All things made abroad and to local styles and methods.

I acknowledged that things were imported- textiles, glassware, easily transportable things like chests and coffers which existed in huge quantities before the advent of the disposable cardboard box. You make the point that I guess I failed to when you say All things made abroad and to local styles and methods., emphasis on to local styles and methods. Imported goods were made to reflect local styles, not the styles of their country of origin. I was speaking with Jeffrey about this and heis comment was that Italian export style was distinct from Italian style; in a case such as this an Englishman who imported armour from Italy, or had his armour made by an Italian craftsman working in England would likely have armour in the Italian export style, rather than the straight Italian style.

Your point If the high born was a Medici banker and the Engishman a wool trader wanting to set up a factor in Italy then possibly. rather reverses my question though, doesn't it- I was asking whether a high born Englishman would be using an Italian table, assuming that if there was a gift that it had been made from the Italian to the Englishman; your statement states the opposite.

Drat, out of time, maybe I can find tiome to post more later. I hate July.

or conversely how different were some foreign items anyway, ie was there a similar style because of the trade?

re high born, yes sorry I got a bit weird on that one, what I was getting at it may not necessarily need to be someone high born but in a position where they are wealthy and dealing with other wealthy people. The aristocratic rank not being as important.

You off to Pennsic?

remember loads of gin for medicinal purposhes only hic.

have a good one

xx

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Won't touch gin, undertand we're drinking something called "Voodoo Juice" which comes in a bucket. By the time I get there I will need to drink alcohol which comes in a bucket.

So it's order of precedence, or so I'm told. I wouldn't know...since I'm usually the DD (Designated Driver).

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Here's what the Encyclopedia Galactica has to say about alcohol. It says that alcohol is a colourless volatile liquid formed by the fermentation of sugars and also notes its intoxicating effect on certain carbon-based life forms. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol. It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. * It says that the effect of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick. * The Guide also tells you on which planets the best Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters are mixed, how much you can expect to pay for one and what voluntary organizations exist to help you rehabilitate afterwards. The Guide even tells you how you can mix one yourself. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy sells rather better than the Encyclopedia Galactica.

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did you hear that? the sound of another precious rib cracking as I laugh. ;-)

Trying to help your theory my love, not pitching my own, trying to sift through the contexts in which furniture, for some odd reason (I suspect an ulterior motive) Italian might be given as a gift.

xxx

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ginevra:

Do we have evidence that medieval people travelled for fun and collected souveniers along the way (visited Italy and brought back furniture)? In a xenophobic society I'm thinking the idea of "taking one's holiday abroad" is a later phenomenon, although aquiring souveniers might not be.

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Yes and no, it depends if you are talking everyday people or if you are talking about the upper class. Late medieval traveling holidays are typically couch in the realm of pilgrimage but by the fifteenth century for the nobles of Europe they start using them as some kind of noble tour, there is a term for it but I'm too tired to look it up. For England in the late fifteenth century the number one example is John Tiptoft, Earl of Worcester who spent a couple of years in Italy and became quite enamoured with Italian humaist culture. So I wouldn't be surprised if in some document of his that he had an italian table that he brought back, but is that really evidence for someone having an italian table in England in that period. In my opinion no. We have list of most of the goods imported into England and we have lists of what people owned. Now certainly more looking can be made there but without that I don't see a particularly valid arguement that an Italian table would have been owned by a non-special Englishman. So then you have to look to who had a special relationship and did such relationships exist that would have caused such an item to end up in the hands of an Englishman. I don't know if they did or did not and wouldn't want to guess without doing research but I would guess that if they do that they are not very common.

No "ulterior motive" per se, I just don't do crosswords and was looking for something to think about that isn't getting ready for Pennsic. Sad sack that I am, this question piques my interest instead of something fun like planning a holiday or repainting my bedroom like normal people!!

Jenn, during the rest of the year you can measure the amount of alcohol I drink in single digit ounces. During Pennsic that all goes out the window, as if don't maintain a slight buzz for the whole week I might have to kill someone. It's much nicer for me to giggle like a nitwit than to do a Linda Blair imitation!

lol.

I know what you mean, for quite some weeks I spent the few minutes before I fell asleep thinking about preparig cloth for painting....sad sacks unite.

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Thomas "Mr. Pavise" Hayman, you're already a card carry member of the Nerdy Bunch!!!

Such a pity too- you could have had a normal life.....