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Author
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Topic: What do these represent? (clothing & heraldry question)
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Randal Scott
Member
Member # 465
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posted 01-01-2005 01:42 PM
    
Hey all medieval knowing folks, What does the 'sideways "E"' as well as the belt at the bottom of the Jupon represent?  Thanks, all [ 01-01-2005: Message edited by: Randal Scott ] -------------------- Randal Scott
The Duelists
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Seigneur de Leon
Member
Member # 65
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posted 01-01-2005 03:57 PM
I think the 'E' represents the son of the person with that heraldry. The Black Prince (is that who that is?) carried a similar device over the English kings' arms to show he was a first son.
There is a name for such devices, but I'm not that up on heraldry.IMHO, the belt doesn't signify anything but fashion for the late 14th C. In the 15th, they started wearing swords diagonally, rather than on the hip. There is a great deal of debate as to how these hip belts "defied gravity". Attached to the jupon? Armour underneath?  [ 01-01-2005: Message edited by: Seigneur de Leon ] -------------------- VERITAS IN INTIMO
VIRES IN LACERTU
SIMPLICITAS IN EXPRESSO
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Randal Scott
Member
Member # 465
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posted 01-01-2005 05:05 PM
Seigneur de Leon, Thanks for the reply. The individual is John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, 1350 or so. Third or fourth son of Edward III. My next question was how IS that belt suspended, but you beat me to the punch!  Thanks! -------------------- Randal Scott
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gaukler
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Member # 30
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posted 01-01-2005 09:41 PM
And how is the sword suspended from the belt?
mark[ 01-01-2005: Message edited by: gaukler ] -------------------- mark@medievalwares.com
http://www.medievalwares.com
medieval metalwork and authentic antiquities
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 01-01-2005 11:11 PM
The mark is called a Label, it is a mark of cadency indicating the eldest son. It is worn on the coat of arms until the death of the father.All members of the British royal family, male and female have a label on their arms. The heir apparent has three points. There are some that have more. I think somewhere on the site, the sword belt was discussed. Might want to do a search to see what turns up. Jenn -------------------- ad finem fidelis
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Randal Scott
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Member # 465
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posted 01-02-2005 01:55 PM
Rockin'! Thanks Fire Stryker, That's what what I was after. BTW, Is there a name for that specific belt, or belt type?Thanks again, -------------------- Randal Scott
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 01-03-2005 08:41 AM
Here's one of the threads I had indicated regarding the plaque belts.
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=200132
Follow the various links. There are some good conversations on the topic and some useful book references.
A book that came up several times is: Ilse Fingerlin's Guertel des hohen un spaeten Mittelalters. Hope this helps. Jenn [ 01-03-2005: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ] -------------------- ad finem fidelis
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Randal Scott
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Member # 465
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posted 01-15-2005 06:20 PM
Hey all, Thanks a whole bunch! You all rock, especially FireStryker! I really appreciate all your knowledge and willingness to help! -------------------- Randal Scott
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Fire Stryker
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 2
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posted 01-15-2005 09:26 PM
If Edward didn't have a son, it would technically go to the next eldest brother unless there was some "reason" to bar his claim.I don't know if it works by numbers, like 4 = 4th born, 5=fifth born, etc... I'd have to take a look and see what it says. J [ 01-15-2005: Message edited by: Fire Stryker ] -------------------- ad finem fidelis
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Woodcrafter
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Member # 197
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posted 01-16-2005 11:39 PM
Marks of Cadency, from _The Art of Heraldry_ by Fox-Davies.Pg 340+ ... Heraldry marked not the person, but the head of the household/landowner. The next inline bore the label seen above that was anywhere from 3 to 7 dangly bits. The Royal Family is a law onto itself. Not all countries followed marks of cadency. Only once is a female known to have used it. By the 15thc it turns into a legal-beagle of who gets what in terms of who owns the land. And the marks of cadency have expanded to:
a Crescent = second son
a Mullet (star) = third son
a Martlet (bird) = fourth son
an Annulet (ring) = fifth son
a Fleur-de-lis - sixth son
a Rose = seventh son
a Cross Moline = eighth son
a double Quatrefoil = ninth son (note to self, don't pick a fight with a family like that :-) Normally in centre chief, it could be anywhere, and could be a border or a bend instead. Hey Martin where have you settled? -------------------- Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking
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Martin
Member
Member # 603
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posted 01-17-2005 03:44 AM
Hi Dan,
that what you have mentioned is right for Britian, but was not used in Germany or Switzerland. There it isn´t that clear which son you have in front of you, as the arms where all the same, a good example you see in the "Chronik des Konstanzer Konzils 1414 -1418"
Where the arms of almost all who where there are listed, and they make no differances, by adding such symbols as was done in Britain.
So that is a regional thing.
Well leaving Europe on the 15th of March,
first stop will be Summerland, and then we are of to Ontario, better chances of getting a job there, than in B.C.
-------------------- Verpa es, qui istuc leges. Non es fidenter scripto!
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posted 01-06-2005 04:58 AM
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