I''ve been commissioned to make a "15th C. huntsman's costume" for a museum. They of course want all green/brown because "that's what hunters wore".

Having learnt to be sceptical of assumptions, I ask- Did they really?

I've looked through Gaston Phoebus' "Book of the Hunt", The Tres Riches Heurs "Hunting" plate, and the hunt scenes in Rene's "Thesiade", and everyone seems to be wearing everything -but- brown and green, including the guys on the ground.

I know it's -assumed- that hunters wear green, but is there anything in the historical record on which to base that assumption?

I'm doing a reasonably researched reconstruction here not a fancy dress "Robin Hood costume", so if anyone could direct me towards a 15th C. source that makes a statement one way or the other I'd be grateful.

Oh, and as an afterthought, the same facility wants a historical Robin Hood outfit. Are there any stories, poems, etc. that talk about what Robin Hood wore? I don't want to have to rely on Errol Flynn for my "research".

Thanks!

Gwen

I'm going to go back and look at GP again, as I'm sure I missed important info the first time around. Dave Key also suggested the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries, which I had forgotten completely about. I bought a big glossy book on them this summer and haven't had time to look at it. Doh. I should probably look at the Unicorn Hunt tapestries in the Cloisters/MMOA. Dom also suggested some references in Edward III's Black Book, so I'm going to poke around in there as well.

Some good leads, I'm sure I can get lots of info when I look.

Whereas in the following one, the rider and the tracker are both wearing green.
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0030.jpg

Gwen, I think if you look at the other documents proposed, you'll be fine with whichever colors you choose. I think it would be cool if you did one based off of Phoebus link above. It will even meet the "Robin Hood" aspect, well the hat anyway.

The outfit is going to be worn by an interpreter telling the story of St. Julian. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/julian.html. I've suggested the person telling the story be of the same class as St. Julian to make the point that in the Middle Ages the sport of hunting was restricted to the upper classes. It seems that point was one the museum wanted to make with this presentation, so the idea of dressing the interpreter in something posh was received with enthusiasm. I've suggested something out of Gaston Pheobus along the lines of a rich gown and fantastic early 15th C.hat which they can pair with some clothing they already have and they like the idea.

Whew- I seem to have dodged a bullet on this one- let's hope Robin Hood fares as well!

It occurs to me that since part of the story talks about a deer talking to him then Summaer hunting clothing would be appropriate, so the 'green' would be the most traditional.

However if you've persuaded them to go for posh C15th hunter then you could base the portrayal on another C15th Saintly Hunter ... St Eustace or St Hubert.

I did find some more details on both the Summer and winter issues in Henry VI's wardrobe ... not just hunting ... but summer livery issue tended to be green russet and winter blue/grey russets.

There's a bit in John Cummins The Hound and the Hawk as well ... well worth a read if the interpreter is supposed to be a huntsman.

Will try to write more next week.

No, the interpreter is not supposed to -be- St. Julian, the storyteller is just a storyteller. The Museum wanted just a generic "huntsman" but then couldn't figure out how to get across Julian's status and the class restriction of hunting. My suggestion of the posh portrayal tied everything together logically and was a good visual vehicle as well which is why they liked it. They tend to have a lot of low end interpretations, so this will be a nice change.

Having gone through Pheobus and the other texts again, I see a lot of red and blue as well, and the posh hunters on horses (as opposed to the people on the ground) don't appear to be as bound by colour as the people on the ground. Pheobus himself is shown wearing red, blue, and gold in various plates, as are most of the people on horse.

I was thinking of a gown of red and gold, buskins or loose riding boots, spurs, and hunting horn such as the person I take to be the Master of Game (or perhaps Phoebus himself) wears in these images: http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0042.jpg or http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0052.jpg or perhaps a slightly less tony version as here: http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0046.jpg or here- http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0054.jpg

I see a lot of red in the manuscripts as well as in the Devonshire Tapestries. It seems that red would be an appropriate colour for hunting with it's associations with blood and all- what do you think?

Are deer hunted in the summer in England? Here in the States deer are hunted in the winter. Were there seasonal restrictions on hunting in the Middle Ages as there are now? I know Dom has read "Hound and Hawk" any number of times but I admit to being almost entirely ignorant on the subject of medieval hunting.

Gwen

red is a popular colour in manuscripts because it is bright as well as having connotations of luxury.

be careful about making assumptions on the use as there were many artistic conventions and even with limited pallets on the simplest of works red is featured. But also the red used is often a red lake which is also the red dye used on the expensive crimsons.

The duller reds appear be madders, they end up looking brownish, but are reds ne'ertheless but are used on cheap jobs such as coloured pritns.

Point is the bright reds may be used to actually depict less bright reds in real life, ie a hunter may not be wearing crimson red but madder red but madder looks cheap on an expensive manuscript if you see what I mean?

I would combine a visual with a look at some livery lists, Dave will have notes about the kinds of colours/cloth issued to staff, which the huntsmen would also be, so a livery badge or marker might be in order too?

I look forward to seeing it.

jorge

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Point taken regarding colours in mss. vs. colours of cloth, hence Dave's comment about the Devonshire tapestries. In the other thread I commented that the face colours on the DHT are quite faded but the reverse is still bright- reds on the reverse range from deep red to chestnut and everything in between. I still treat the tapestry with scepticism though, since the tapestry is a luxury item and the colours may or may not be the same sort of colours used for clothing.

The museum seems to like this image the best- http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0054.jpg . I take this to be either the Master of Game or possibly Phoebus himself (same doublet sleeve as Phoebus wears in the dining scene), and I'll do what I can with finding a moderate red. It's been my observation that most of my American clients don't really like the more muted hues created by natural dyes, for the most part they want the bright clear colours.

I'm looking forward to doing one of these early 15th C. outfits- I've not done one since Joan of Arc for ther Higgins, and that was some time ago.

As far as I can remember the medieval hunting tradition was for the boar hunt in winter amd the deer hunt in summer. That would fit with what you see in Gaston Phoebus with the 'poo at the picnic' for the deer and the boar in winter. I have one reference to the French Stag hunting season running from 4 May and 14 September.

I'd have to dig around a bit more to get more info ... in theory I'd expect there would be formal regulation and it might still exist down the road from me at the Verderers Court in Lyndhurst in the New Forest (This 'New' Forest of William the Conquerer is, or was until this year when it became a National Park so I'm not so sure, under Forest law i.e. it was afforested land (not Forest per se) for hunting. Technically I can't run my dogs there as they can't pass under a bar without stooping so would require their claws cut ... can't understand why a deer park would have aproblem with deerhounds ... ??)

If you are portraying a nobleman hunting then I don't thinnk the colours would matter too much ... but the cloth should be appropriate to their station and so would the dyes as a consequency. But early C15th Russets were still considered 'proper' cloth for knights (according to Edward IV's Black Book as they didn't like them by the middle of the century and took cash intead). Although 'green' would be still be the appropriate colour for summer and grey for winter. Interestingly enough the modern hunt has 'pinks' for the master huntsmen (the red coats of the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible as the modern fox hunt was once described ) however for the majority of the hunt the proper clothing is tweed, so effectively a grey/green/brown. How old that tradition is I have no idea but it may show an interesting parallel to Gaston Phoebus.

The key to a huntsman is the horn worn from a baldric of crossed straps with a simple linkage tie where the cross with attached to the straps around the horn itself which should be 2 hand in length if I recall ... I'll try and look this bit up. A the knives for the Curee.

Have you decided on the type of hunt as a boar hunt and bear hunt have different weapons to a deer hunt. For the deer the dogs do the work. For the Boar the sword or 'boar spear' with cross lugs is required., I'm assuming the interpreter will be on foot so the 'picnic' of the deer hunt would give lots of scope for showing class, finery, the tools of the hunt and a few yuck factors with dried deer poo of different types ...

Moving right along- the head of interpretation likes red, I like red, the public likes red, red photographs well and it shows up in both the Devonshire Tapestries and Gaston Phoebus so- I think we'll be going with-red!

All joking aside, key here is that what we're talking about are interpreters at a museum, i.e. actors. Not all museums have the good sense to get passionate living historians who actually know something about history to do their interpretations, most hire actors, dress them up, give them a script, and send them off to give their 'interpretation'. Their knowledge of history ends right where the script does and that's it.

I consider myself damned fortunate that this museum has a head of interpretation who freely admits he knows nothing about history and is willing to not only listen to people who do, he's sensible enough to ask if he doesn't know a historical fact and not just bluff his way through. To my mind that alone is a major breakthrough, and the fact that this costume will be based on a historical image and not something from Osprey is another.

Jeff is working up the horn- he's pretty excited about it because he said he's always wanted to try to work out how they go. There are a few good images in Phoebus, but anything you'd like to contribute regarding the way it goes together would be welcome. And here's a question for you- one of the shepherds in van der Goes "Portinari triptych" has a horn slung on his bag. What sort of horn do you suppose it is, and is it related to the hunting horn? Jeff and I were talking about it and Jeff thinks it doesn't have enough holes to be a musical intrument (it only has either 3 or 4, I can't remember offhand) and so must be related to some sort of signal horn that can only play 3 or 4 notes. I think hunting horns don't play notes at all, just long blasts or short in various combination because that's what's described in Phoebus-long and short sounds, not notes of different pitch. I think the shepherd has a rudimentary musical instrument because it does have holes which presumably play notes of different pitches. Your thoughts?

Oh, and poo as part of a museum interpretation may fly in old Blighty but I assure you it wouldn't go over with the American public!

Gwen

I think that was the point really about the colours, make sure the station is right, so "a gown upgrade sir, we have a nice kermes red in stock, madder is soooo last season"

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A couple of possibilities spring to my mind. First, since the owner is a shepherd I think we can quickly dismiss the possibility of a 'hunting' horn.

Similarly I agree that the number of possible notes based on the holes is too few for formal music ... although there is a reasonable range without any ... I can manage three different pitches on my hunting horn which is literally just a horn from a cow with a hole at both ends.

To my mind the user, a Shepherd, in an illustration heavy with symbolic imagery, is the key to this.

In a modern context I thought of 2 possibilities:
1. Personal music ... the 'Jews Harp' is a similar sort of instrument ... meant to idly waste long hours away without any formality or complexity. For Shepherds watching over their flocks it would be ideal ... like simple pan pipes were originally.

2. Signaling ... but not as per hunting to other men but to a dog. Today shepherds still use a series of whistles to signal to their dog to control a flock. I know they use intonation which a simple instrument like this would probably give them ... but whether it would be a) as done at the time or b) actually a practical tool ... sorry your guess is at least as good as mine!

I'll have another look to see if there is anything else that springs to mind.

I'll try and get some details on how I did my hunting horn later.