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Author Topic: New article on cauldrons
Jacob
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posted 11-02-2003 10:03 PM     Profile for Jacob   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I've recently been doing some research on cauldrons. I know how hard it is to raise a helmet, and that cast iron wasn't used until the renaissance, so where did all of these large pots come from?

Here's what I've found out so far. Any comments are welcome.

Cauldrons and the Development of Cast Iron for Domestic Use: http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/cauldrons.htm

Jacob

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SCA: Edric of Scardeburg http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/


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Jeff Johnson
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posted 11-03-2003 08:04 AM     Profile for Jeff Johnson   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'd looked into this before and discovered that until the late 14th C, there were a lot of cast bronze cauldrons.

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Geoffrey Bourrette
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Woodcrafter
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posted 11-03-2003 10:14 AM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Jacob, that link states...
quote:
Europeans in the middle ages cast copper alloys and occasionally iron, but even into the fifteenth century, they thought...

So cast iron cauldrons are not impossible, but very rare. Bronze cauldrons would be the norm for 14thc. There is also a distinctive shape, round. Regional differences existed with a raised band around the centre, etc. Many 18thc cauldrons miss the look. Dutch ovens are not close.

There is surviving cookware, in copper, of flat bottomed pots as well as round bottomed. Rivets and welds are all used.

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Jacob
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posted 11-03-2003 12:22 PM     Profile for Jacob   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
For 14th century the options seem to be:

Bronze: hammered, cast or riveted
Wrought iron: raised or riveted

Iron was probably cast into a few things before the 15th century, but I doubt they were as big or complex as cauldrons.

Jacob


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Friedrich
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posted 11-03-2003 02:47 PM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I brought this up for discussion a couple of years ago. The trend of the time seemed to be that cast bronze were definitely the most common both in cauldrons and pots. Artifacts from the Mary Rose warship were all in bronze. It seems that cast iron was much more rare and mostly reserved for the wealthy. With so much expansion, 100 yrs war, WOR, etc., I wonder if wrought iron was much more in demand and in severely short supply. (tools, arrowheads, swords, armour, horse supporting items).

Casting bronze as an industry was definitely in full swing with so many cannons being cast.

Just keep in mind that cooking in bronze cookware is poisonous. Certainly being ultra careful and keeping the cookware ultra clean is the key to safely using bronze. But I'd just as soon waive this area of authenticity and use cast iron which gives you a benefit of iron suppliment anyway!

The best cast bronze and cast iron cauldrons came from the UK. But as of last attempts at communicating, the Rayne Foundry was shut down so no orders were being taken.

http://www.re-enact.com/Rayne%20home1.htm
http://www.castings.fsbusiness.co.uk/ http://www.modeladvice.co.uk/esseximages/Rayne/rayne.html http://www.hdowns.co.uk/Receivership.htm

[ 11-03-2003: Message edited by: Friedrich ]


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Woodcrafter
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posted 11-04-2003 09:02 AM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Good news! I have struggled with these people for years. If they had actually done any business, they would not have gone into receivership.

As for the poisonous conditions of the bronze cookware. People have eaten out of them for hundreds of years. So that shows the level of cleanliness they lived at. The quote from Rayne's site is:

quote:
You should be aware that the main threat is posed by the copper, if you cook acidic foods (wine, fruit, cabbage etc) you are likely to get verdigris forming. This is the blue/green stain commonly seen on any copper containing pan (modern ones also).

The experts at Hampton Court Palace use a set of my bronze cauldrons and pans for their cooking demonstrations and eat the food for a ten day period. Why don't they get poisoned?

The pans are kept in a polished condition inside and out.
Food is never allowed to stand in the pans once cooked.
The pans are cleaned and dried instantly the food is served
They really are experts.


So are there any foundaries out there able to produce a bronze cauldron?

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Friedrich
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posted 11-04-2003 10:12 AM     Profile for Friedrich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
If they had actually done any business, they would not have gone into receivership.[/B]

While I don't know the details, the original Rayne foundry did alot of custom cast parts for the industrial industry. Casting bronze cauldrons was likely an interesting hobby of opportunity.

Probably the next, closest commercial grade cast iron cauldron could be from Mel in the UK at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/LCVInternational/periodpr.htm


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Peter Lyon
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posted 05-07-2004 06:15 PM     Profile for Peter Lyon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
A thought on the bronze vs iron casting questions.

Bronze melts and flows at about 950C, iron at over 1100C. It was possible but technically difficult to melt iron before the 15th century, when smelting processes improved and the high temperatures needed to melt the iron out of the ore, could be maintained for the time needed, but the cost in fuel would have been higher. Most iron before this was made from blooms, lumps of iron and slag that weren't fully melted, that had to be hammered repeatedly at red-orange heat to remove some of the slag and distribute the rest evenly.

Even though the copper and tin for bronze were expensive, the economics probably favoured bronze and hammered iron in the 14th century, then moved towards cast iron during the 15th.


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Woodcrafter
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posted 05-08-2004 06:11 PM     Profile for Woodcrafter   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Spot on Peter, I certainly agree.

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Woodcrafter
14th c. Woodworking


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Edric
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posted 11-12-2004 03:22 PM     Profile for Edric     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Of course ceramic cauldrons are also an option.
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gregory23b
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posted 11-15-2004 08:48 AM     Profile for gregory23b   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
re toxicity.

yes verdigris is a toxin, but if pots are kept spotless and clean and dry no verdigris should form.

Similarly our forebears were using lead for al kinds of things, brewing beer in 'leads', plumbing (hence the name), paint, and up to the 20th century jam pots were lead lined as lead white is slighty sweet.

Funny though the only cautions seem to be about arsenic based pigments, realgar and orpiment and the odd mercury one. The lead and verdigris seems not to have been noticed.

nice thread btw.

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history is in the hands of the marketing department - beware!


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