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Topic: Plaque belts

Ulfgar
Member
Member # 225

posted 03-18-2003 12:37 AM

Can anyone help me with reference to the "plaque belts" common to the, uh.... 13th century (??? or 14th???). I was wondering how the belts actually were worn as they are usually depicted rather low upon the male wearers hips. Is there some secret to stopping them running down? I have heard a theory that they were suspended from small hooks or ties but have seen no supporting evidence.
Ulfgar

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Yes, these are bruises from fighting.That's right, I'm enlightened!

Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Caliburnus
Member
Member # 11

posted 03-18-2003 10:57 AM

Greetings, there were some previous thread regarding plaque belts:
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000220
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000240
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=200059
http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=000138

Dunno if they are any help!

However the guys in my group who wear them use either small hooks to hold them up, or points on the jupon.
To the best of my knowledge they tended to be a more C.14th thing, but I'm happy to be proved wrong!

i can dig out some modern pictures if you are interested

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For God, King and Lancaster

Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

J.K. Vernier
Member
Member # 123

posted 03-18-2003 03:16 PM

These belts were definitely 14th century - roughly 1340s to the end of the century, as late as the 1420s in Germany.

I've been over this problem quite a lot. The problem is that no complete belts of this type survive, and I've never seen any evidence of a trick to keep them in place. Any solution is therefore a modern guess (until period evidence turns up), however this seems to be the sort of case where a modern trick solution is required, unless you decide that the fashion of wearing the belt low is exaggerated in the art of the period, and that it is actually worn just high enough to stay in place. That is my working assumption at the moment.

Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged

Caliburnus
Member
Member # 11

posted 03-18-2003 08:31 PM

one of the pieces of evidence I believe guys in my group cite is that some effigy’s show small points holding chains apart around the neck, i.e. one on either shoulder forcing a large S chain into a big circle. The theory goes that if the points were used to hold this type of chain, perhaps something similar was done for the belts??

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For God, King and Lancaster

Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Ulfgar
Member
Member # 225

posted 03-18-2003 10:08 PM

Thanks for the references caliburnus, unfortunately none of them really answer this particular question- it seems to be an ongoing question. One thought did occur though, is this a case of perspective? are the belts really hung low or does the garment they are hung on actually have an un-naturally high waist line? This would have the effect of lenghtening the body profile maling the wearer seem taller and slimmer as well as making the belt seem slung excessively low. ???
Ulfgar

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Yes, these are bruises from fighting.That's right, I'm enlightened!

Registered: Oct 2001 | IP: Logged

Caliburnus
Member
Member # 11

posted 03-19-2003 04:06 AM

I was in Canterbury fairly recently, visiting the Tomb of the Black Prince with my group. From a close look at the Effigy the belt is clearly lower on the body than the waist, most defiantly on the hips. Of course the tight Jupon does make the waist seem high, as does the small breastplate. However I believe that if the rest of the effigy has accurate depictions of the style of armour in use (and it does) then why would they falsely represent the location of the belt?

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For God, King and Lancaster

Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

chef de chambre
Admin & Advocatus Diaboli
Member # 4

posted 03-19-2003 05:24 AM

Hi All,

The Naural waistline is at the naval above the hips,the modern one unnaturaly on the hips. The belt would be about where a belt would be on a pair of hip-huggers.

Beer bellys and modern jean companies are what are giving a false impression.

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Bob R.

Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Caliburnus
Member
Member # 11

posted 03-19-2003 07:25 AM

heres a really good pic tht shows what i meant above really well.

btw chef, spot on there mate! just look at the burgundian dresses, some have waist's near the armpits ( or so it seems... )

EDIT: pic aint working heres the link...
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~hanly/chaucer/images/blackprinmonmt.html

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For God, King and Lancaster

Registered: May 2000 | IP: Logged

Strongbow
Member
Member # 461

posted 04-23-2003 12:04 PM

Alas, I've come to the conclusion that my modern paunch prevents me from wearing those stylish plaque-belts. I have yet to see one depicted on a fat fellow, though I suppose it might work if you were in full harness with a fauld to hold the belt up (rather like the Black Prince).

On the other hand, there are depictions of more traditionally styled belts being worn higher that have many "plaque-belt-like" qualities, thought these tend to appear earlier in the century it seems. Some are used as sword-belts, and some not.

Strongbow

Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged

Gina
Member
Member # 247

posted 04-27-2003 06:12 AM

If you can get hold of this book, it might help -
Ilse Fingerlin
Gurtel des hohen unf spaten Mittelalters
1971, Deutscher Kunstverlag GmbH, Munchen Berlin
ISBN: 3 422 00645 I

Its in German, but is all about belts and fittings. I'm pretty sure there are plaque belt here, and there may be some information as to how they were worn - if there is any place for laces or hooks for instance. I'm afraid I have only managed to get hold of the book once, and my time was taken up with the few silk girdles in it, so I can't tell you any more!

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Gina-b Silkwork & Passementerie
Tak v Bowes Departed
Soper Lane

Registered: Nov 2001 | IP: Logged

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