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Wolf
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Member # 375

posted 01-08-2003 06:10 PM     Profile for Wolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
ok just a period question. if i have a black doublet, should i have white or black linen for a liner? just wondering if black linen would be proper or not.

Chuck

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Chuck Russell


Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Anne-Marie
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posted 01-09-2003 02:01 AM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wolf:
ok just a period question. if i have a black doublet, should i have white or black linen for a liner? just wondering if black linen would be proper or not.

Chuck


all the insides I've seen in 15th century portraits show natural linen (ie off white).

but I'm no clothing expert!
--Anne-Marie

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"Let Good Come of It"


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Wolf
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posted 01-09-2003 08:26 AM     Profile for Wolf   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
natural eh hmmmmmmmm. thanks.

should i make my jack natural as well? most that i've seen look white

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Chuck Russell


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Adhemar
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posted 01-09-2003 10:22 AM     Profile for Adhemar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Unless you're using a high end fancy fabric for a dress piece (silk, brocade, velvet...) I'd reccomend a natural linen lining.

quote:
should i make my jack natural as well? most that i've seen look white

By jack you mean...? 'Jack' to me is a leather drinking vessel...

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Ta

Adhemar

Imagination was given to man to
compensate him for what he is not;
a sense of humor to console him
for what he is.


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Gordon Clark
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posted 01-09-2003 11:39 AM     Profile for Gordon Clark     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
jack = textile armour used as an outer defense

search here on "jack linen" or some such and you should get plenty of hits.

As an aside - is it true that black was a relatively 'expensive color'?

Gordon

quote:
Originally posted by Adhemar:
Unless you're using a high end fancy fabric for a dress piece (silk, brocade, velvet...) I'd reccomend a natural linen lining.

By jack you mean...? 'Jack' to me is a leather drinking vessel...



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Dave Key
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posted 01-09-2003 12:48 PM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It is cerainly not uncommon to see Black lining listed in inventories and accounts (e.g. those of Sir John Howard). Also you may have differing qualities of cloth for the lining of the arms as to the body.

If you are unsure stick with natural or bleached linen, according to the quality of the doublet.

As to the price of 'black' cloth ... it can be BOTH expensive and cheap.

Sounds odd ? ... maybe but you can get a cheap black using the tannin in Oak Galls (or even Oak chippings) when mordanted with iron (it's why Oak chests get black lines around the iron work. However as this is tannic acid it will cause the fibres of the cloth to rot and it isn't the most 'fast' (i.e. permanent) dye as it will fairly rapidly degrade to a greeny-brown. So these cheap dyes would be used for cheap cloths ... incl. some Linens and Fustians.

To get a good 'true' black you need to use alot of dyes and overdying ... which is both expensive in materials and in labour. Also repeated overdying will require a cloth capable of withstanding the punishment this involves ... so again the cost goes up as you would need a quality cloth for the process and why waste the money/effort on the dye if the cloth doesn't make the investment worthwhile.

This last point holds true for most cloths/colours. Cheap dyes are used for cheap cloths, expensive dyes (eg grain) are reserved for high quality cloths.

As to 'Jacks' ... there are actually quite a few references which suggest that the outer layer of some cloth armours was black (e.g. the double de fense in the Howards accounts is covered with Black Fustian) but I've only ever seen pictures where they are white.


Cheers
Dave


Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged

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