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Author Topic: Info requested- English female clothing c. 1470
Gwen
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posted 09-21-2001 12:07 PM     Profile for Gwen   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
We have a new member of the Red Co. who would is pursuing an English portrayal. Can anyone direct me to visual or written sources for info on women's clothing in England circa1470? I have a ton of stuff for the continent, but almost nothing for England.

Also, does anyone know if CoSG is still publishing the "Dragon"?

Thanks-

Gwen


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AnnaRidley
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posted 09-22-2001 11:55 PM     Profile for AnnaRidley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I'm still looking through my sources for specific images, but the places I'd start looking...

Chris Given-Wilson, An illustrated history of late medieval England
Donald King & Santina Levey, The V&A's Textile Collection: Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750 Plates 19-21.
E Clive Rouse, Medieval Wall Paintings (A shire book)
Richard Marks, The Golden Age of English Manuscript Painting 1200-1500
The Paston Letters book.
Brass rubbing books,

Mitake.


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AnnaRidley
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posted 09-23-2001 01:34 AM     Profile for AnnaRidley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Can't say I have a whole lot that will be useful but here's what I've found so far.

The most commonly extant forms of English art from this period seem to be funeral monuments and manuscript paintings.

In Pleasures and Pastimes in Medieval England a brief mention is given to sumptuary laws being passed in England in 1463, 1477, and 1483 (p 52). There were a couple of sources listed that might have the potential to be useful.

In Monumental Brasses: the portfoilo plates of the Monumental Brass Society 1894-1984, there are approximately 40 rubbings from brasses dated between 1460 and 1480. Some 20-25 of them have ladies depicted. The Catalogue of Rubbings of Brasses (Muriel Clayton) lists 22 female brasses dated either 1470 or 1471. As I was looking through these it occured that they are probably more upper class than you are looking for, however, they seem to be by far the most common preserved art form in england from this period.

Stothard has a couple of interesting effigies.
Richard Beauchamp (begun 1442 finished 1465) - has mourners around the base, 7 of the ones decipicted are female, among other interesting details are prayer beads
Agnes wife of Sir John Crosby - he died 1475 but no other dating for this was available, among the interesting things about Crosby was that he was nouveau riche
There were a couple of others from the 1480's but they are also way upper class.

If there are any of these images you really want to see, let me know and i'll see what I can do to post them.

Also while looking for information I stumbled across a listing for the book below and was wondering if anybody had read it and had thoughts on it...
Fifteenth-Century Attitudes : Perceptions of Society in Late Medieval England
by Rosemary Horrox (Editor)

Mitake.


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AnnaRidley
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posted 09-24-2001 09:24 AM     Profile for AnnaRidley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Another book that I came across this weekend might be useful for protrayal building...

The Lady in Medieval England 1000-1500
by Peter Coss
Paperback - 208 pages (July 2000)
Stackpole Books; ISBN: 081172848X ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.57 x 9.56 x 6.78


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Anne-Marie
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posted 09-24-2001 11:25 AM     Profile for Anne-Marie   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
hey all from Anne-Marie

in reseraching an SCA costuming project, I discovered a whole chapter on English 15th century costume in Millia Davenports History of Costume book.

there's also a bit in the French 20,000 years of costume.

bonne chance!
--AM

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"Let Good Come of It"


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Nikki
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posted 09-27-2001 12:43 PM     Profile for Nikki   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As evidenced by the thread I attempted to start in _Medieval Activities, etc_ on English women's headcoverings, I'm afraid I have to concur about not having very many sources specifically on English clothing, at least in the way of illustrations. And considering as how MoW is currently doing WoR, I have been looking for stuff from some time now. Many of the costuming books which have sections on 'English' clothing have illustrations which are mostly from the continent. When I do a search on the Web Gallery of Art for time:1451-1500,school: English, I get 0 finds....but a search for 1451-1500, Flemish gets me 326 illustrations.....

I've been doing most of my stuff for 1460's WoR with illustrations from the continent (mostly French and Flemish) for the overall look of the clothing, and then using English archaeology finds for as many details as I can. Too bad there aren't many textile finds from the mid-15th century....

I am personally starting to think that the best way of getting detailed info on English clothing from this time period is to look for journal articles. At some point, I am planning an attack on the bibliography section of MoL's _Clothing and Textiles_ and AY's _Textile Production at 16-22 Coppergate_.


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J.K. Vernier
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posted 09-27-2001 04:00 PM     Profile for J.K. Vernier   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
It is a strange art-historical fact that the visual arts, especially painting, in England in the 15th century are a wasteland. In fact this goes back to the late 14th century, and English painting remains on a very retrograde level, compared to developments elsewhere in Europe, until Anthony van Dyck crossed the channel and whipped English artists into shape in the 1630s. Strange, considering that in the 13th century English painters and illuminators were some of the finest in Europe. Go figure. The few good pictures of English people in the 15th century which I can recall are by foreigners - Memling's Donne family triptych is an interesting example, and I commend it to your attention. It is a bit late for RedCo purposes (c. 1480), but it does show an English family which apparently was not resident in Bruges, so that it is unlikely that they have adopted Flemish costume (although you may well ponder, whether the artist painted the family, or their clothes, from life). The close similarity of their clothing to that of Flemish sitters, might argue for a close relationship between Flemish and English fashion in general. We may simply not have enough information to draw useful distinctions.

The earliest clear pictures I know about, of English middle - or serving-class women, are a couple of portraits of Englishwomen by Holbein (another foreigner), probably from the 1520s. They are believed to be of Royal Household attendants, and the relationship of their clothing to that of their betters is certainly instructive, if too late for the RedCo. One of these is in the Detroit Institute of Arts, and I have good photos of it (Remind me to get this to you, Gwen, if you want it. Someday I will get a scanner).

I am intrigued by Margaret Scott's belief (for which she provides visual evidence in "The History of Dress series: Late Gothic Europe 1400-1500") that servants tended to wear clothing perhaps a generation behind the current fashion. In a couple of instances I have found example which seem to support this idea. Whether this holds for the middle classes in general is a question also worth pursuing, although walking down the street I see that it still holds true occasionally even today.

[ 09-27-2001: Message edited by: J.K. Vernier ]


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Dave Key
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posted 09-28-2001 07:52 AM     Profile for Dave Key   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Companie of Saynt George ... yes they do still publish Dragon, but don't forget their bias is Continental.


There are some English illustrations from the later C15th but you'll do well to find them!

The most famous series of illustrations are probably the Eton Murals. This is a series of wall paintings from c.1480 which show quite a few interesting details and are of high quality. However, like the 'Beauchamp Chronicle' (again c1480) it was probably produced by a Fleming for an English client ... as per 'The Arrivall' and or Van der Weyden's Donne Tryptich.

Another wall painting that's worth looking at is in the Pickering in North Yorkshire. This shows a whole range of images from Biblical scenes (partic. Herod) but you have to be very careful with this as it was heavily repainted in the c19th, for example the St george and the archer paintings frequently shown in modern books as C15th are actually c19th (thankfully a watercolour was taken prior to 'restoration') and the Vicar has kindly sent me both (and the conservation report.

Another source is the Buxton Senschal which is a wall painting in Norwich. Again restored but useful as it does show some details. Similarly there are other isolated wall paintings e.g. on the Isle of Wight which add to the overall picture.

When you put these alongside the extant written sources (whether Household accounts, wills etc.) together with some sideways literary remarks ... there's a Scottish Act which complains about the excesses in womens headcoverings and that they ought to wear the plain hoods like the English and Flemish ... what comes out is really very similar to the Flemish clothing. There are likely to be subtle differences ... certainly the reference to some of Edward's clothing post 1470 being of the 'Dutch guise' (maybe Dutch=Netherlands, maybe Dutch as-in Deutch / German, althohgh Germans are referd to as Germans in lists of Aliens ??) suggests some differences.

So overall, if you're looking for the middling degree then use the books mentioned previously, look for the archaeological details from the MoL books and compare with Continental ... it'll hint at differences, but essentially aim for a similar style to the Flemish.

Cheers
Dave


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J.K. Vernier
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posted 09-28-2001 01:24 PM     Profile for J.K. Vernier   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks Mr. Key, that's good stuff. It's pretty hard to find anything published about English mural painting, but I have some hopes of success as I have access to a library with an excellent photo study collection. Your list of locations provides the all-important starting point.
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fra.hulettaes
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posted 09-28-2001 01:59 PM     Profile for fra.hulettaes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
My thanks to Gwen for suggesting this list to me. I have some references (visual) in a book (not my only one) By Dorothy Hartley called 'Medieval Costume and Life' which I really like for it's real practical approach. The references in question are pg. 72 Ill A which shows a woman spinning yarn. The caption label reads (B.M. Facs. 198, 15c.) but as I have no reference section in the book, I can't tell if it's continental or English. If it's English, then it answers my question 'cause she is wearing a tight bodice, gathered skirt arrangement similar to Red Co. dresses. Also noted on the same page is Ill E labeled (B.M. MS. Kings, 9, 15c.) Also showing a woman (of lesser class) spinning in a tighter bodice dress with nice head covering and apron. Again, is it English? I don't know what the label is referencing. The last photo reference shows a woman with a purse on page 102 Ill D labeled (B.M. MS. Harl. 4425, 15c.) Woman of much lower class (though with a really cool purse (read:highly envious)) in a continental style bodice (very ragged) with apron (same) and simple head wrap. One interesting item of this Ill is her shoes. Clearly, low healed, across the arch leather sandles remenicent of Dr. Sholles sandles.
Anyhow, if anyone on the list can tell me where the labeled info came from, that would greatly help me put this together. One other simple question. Would my woolen overdress be a larger verson of the tight undergarment or cut like a Houpelande, wide and belted in?
Thanks to all for the help. Joan (fra.hulettaes)

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Why pay someone to do it right when you can screw it up yourself for free?


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fra.hulettaes
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posted 10-26-2001 02:00 PM     Profile for fra.hulettaes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Thanks to all for your help in this. Just a quick update, I spoke with Elaine from the British Library Manuscripts Collection and it turns out that the image of the woman in ragged clothes known as 'Avarice' is from a copy of the Romance of the Rose by some artists in Flanders around 1490. It is both too late and from the wrong country for my purposes.
I continue to look at sources suggested by by the group and hope to have some productive results by the Bates Event.

--------------------

Why pay someone to do it right when you can screw it up yourself for free?


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