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Author
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Topic: late 14th century mens undershirts
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Doug Strong
Member
Member # 159
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posted 04-30-2001 09:21 AM
    
Does anyone have any references for late, circa 1380s, mens undershirts? I seel lotso f 13th and 15th century illustrations but have not found any late 14th century pictures. I admit, not being a costumer, I have not looked too much.-------------------- Doug Strong
doug-strong@comcast.net http://armourresearchsociety.org http://talbotsfineaccessories.com
Armour patterns, shoemaking books, reproductions buckles, jewelry and accessories. Historical antiquites and artifacts from every period starting at one dollar ($1)
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Anna Kovacs
Member
Member # 142
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posted 04-30-2001 10:53 AM
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index.html try a search for images between 1350 and 1400 on that site, and be amazed. It's hard to find a representation of an undershirt, though. It is usually hidden...  Might look for specific themes like pictures from the Passion cycle or certain moments of saints' lives, where less clothing is involved, and the undershirt shown emphasizes the vulnerability of flesh as opposed the soul's turning towards God... Of course, that last paragraph has not much to do with your original question, I just thought that it might show that in the Middle Ages a man in an undershirt can represent many things... Anna -------------------- --Soldiers live. And wonder why--
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Doug Strong
Member
Member # 159
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posted 04-30-2001 02:52 PM
I went there. 192 images from that period> It is great. I looked at every one. Lots of great stuff about stages of undress, no hose, puttin gon hose, hose rolled down, buttons left undone but no undershirts. I found one possible undershirt at http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/art/s/spinello/benedicy.jpg dated to 1387 (one year later than it is for me so that is great!) what do you think? Is it an undershirt? Anybody else got any sources?-------------------- Doug Strong
doug-strong@comcast.net http://armourresearchsociety.org http://talbotsfineaccessories.com
Armour patterns, shoemaking books, reproductions buckles, jewelry and accessories. Historical antiquites and artifacts from every period starting at one dollar ($1)
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Anna Kovacs
Member
Member # 142
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posted 04-30-2001 04:30 PM
Hey Talbot,
see that's what I am talking about--fishin', fishin', being patient...but so far, if anyone has any real proof for male undershirt from the late 14th c. in images, please show it to me, because I ddid not find any. That one on that altarpainting, btw, is a worker's cotte, loose and reaching about calf-height, with those soft boots. NIce, but not what you were looking for.
The one I have for showing undies, from a Hungarian manuscript cca. 1360, shows a guy dressing, his hose tucked under breeches, he's pulling on his pourpoint, but clearly no undershirt. From inventories I had the same picture--now be careful, for we cannot tell wether it's because they did not wear it, or because the cost of producing it was so low, or becasue it was produced at home, homespun and sewn by household ladies... Pardon my rambling thoughts and language discrepancies, I am but learning.Take care, Anna -------------------- --Soldiers live. And wonder why--
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Anna Kovacs
Member
Member # 142
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posted 04-30-2001 04:34 PM
Now why did I post this twice I have no idea- tried to delete this post, but the option was not offered so I just post this instead... Apologies.[ 04-30-2001: Message edited by: Anna Kovacs ] [ 04-30-2001: Message edited by: Anna Kovacs ] -------------------- --Soldiers live. And wonder why--
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Bob Hurley
Member
Member # 58
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posted 04-30-2001 05:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Peder:
gotta love research. spend hours digging and turn up nothing of much use. Try the Age of Charles V It has full manuscripts two from the late-14th century. Brent
Didn't find a shirt yet, but saw some very good pictures of braies, the best I've seen yet. I feel better now that I'm not the only one having difficulty here, I've been looking for an undershirt picture for nearly a year. No luck yet. And I still suspect that a simple wedge tent will be found in a 14thC source, yet. [ 05-01-2001: Message edited by: Bob Hurley ]
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Doug Strong
Member
Member # 159
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posted 04-30-2001 07:44 PM
I've seen them sticking out from the bottom edges of cotes and the like but cannot find one. Just wondering why were none found at Herjolfsness? Lots of othere stuff there but to the best of my knowledge no braes or undershirts. Why is this?-------------------- Doug Strong
doug-strong@comcast.net http://armourresearchsociety.org http://talbotsfineaccessories.com
Armour patterns, shoemaking books, reproductions buckles, jewelry and accessories. Historical antiquites and artifacts from every period starting at one dollar ($1)
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Gwen
Member
Member # 126
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posted 04-30-2001 09:38 PM
Talbot asks "why were none found at Herjolfsness? Lots of othere stuff there but to the best of my knowledge no braes or undershirts. Why is this?"It's a pretty well-documented archaeological / physical phenomenon that bast fibers don't survive earth interment very well. Wool does great, but plant fibers just rot away. BTW, they found some bits of bast fiber around the graves at Herjolfsnes, but they aren't even sure if they are flax, nettle, or hemp. Gwen
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Doug Strong
Member
Member # 159
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posted 05-01-2001 10:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ginevra:
It's a pretty well-documented archaeological / physical phenomenon that bast fibers don't survive earth interment very well. Wool does great, but plant fibers just rot away.
That is pretty much what I had suspected. Any other ideas for sources? -------------------- Doug Strong
doug-strong@comcast.net http://armourresearchsociety.org http://talbotsfineaccessories.com
Armour patterns, shoemaking books, reproductions buckles, jewelry and accessories. Historical antiquites and artifacts from every period starting at one dollar ($1)
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Johannes
Member
Member # 168
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posted 05-01-2001 11:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ginevra:BTW, they found some bits of bast fiber around the graves at Herjolfsnes, but they aren't even sure if they are flax, nettle, or hemp. Gwen[/B]
The main problem with the Herjolfsnes find and its content is that it was done so early in the century. Had it been found at the same time as the recent Towton find we would know a great deal more than we do. Norlund mentions stuff which could easily have been important, but was not conserved because it was basically slime. And in 1920, slime wasn't as much fun as it is today. None of which helps Talbot find a depiction of an undershirt. -------------------- Johannes
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